The "Perfect Start" to the Day (Sarcasm)

[Marigold]

I'm just a *bit* annoyed (actually, I'm *quite* annoyed) that people seem to feel free to comment on my appearance - even in a rude way.

Example A:

I go into work this morning finally feeling okay w/how I look. I am not wearing any makeup - and my hair is "natural" (it's frizzy in it's natural state - my father's Italian heritage).

Okay - I'm fine!

Then a co-worker sees me:

she: you look *different* today.

she: you are'nt wearing any makeup, right?

me: no I'm not

she: better put some on...

me: I don't want to!

she: oh, well you just look...*different*

:ugh

Excuuuuuse Me - but - when did I put that sign on myself that says:

"Feel Free to Comment On My Appearance Whenever You Want - Don't Be Afraid of Saying Anything Rude Either!:yay"

Oh, I forgot - it was the day I was born, when they put the *pink* ribbon on me.:ohboy

Please - I'd rather people don't tell me I'm over-reacting.

Aside from the implication that I look like something that must have crawled out of the swamp, somehow put on some clothes and slimed my way over to work:muhaha

I really would rather not know that co-workers think I look *better* w/some makeup slapped on my face.

Jeez! All this after my "hating my body" post -

Makes me think: apparently I'm not the only one who hates how I look!

This is what I'm trying to say - even if I work on my attitudes and start to feel better - there is always the *culture* (of which this co-worker is a part of) that is ready to slam me back down in to my "place" of abject misery over my looks.

I really don't feel inclined to put a postive spin on this (nor am I looking for sympathy).

I think this example is indicative of what is wrong when women are so rigorously judged on how they look.

I'm not saying she *meant* to try to make me feel bad (probably, knowing her, perhaps not).

I'm saying: I can never get away from this "gaze" that seems to follow me everywhere, always ready to pounce on my flaws.

It's not all just about *me* and my inner demons!:reallymad

Even if I shrug off her remark - it represents a whole friggin lifetime of this judging gaze embodied in the form of mothers, aunts, sisters, friends, husbands, boyfriends, brothers, television, the movies, music...

And I'm sick of it.

I woke up liking my frizzy hair, my unmade up face, my cool jewelry and my brightly colored t-shirt.

Now I have to fight something I didn't want to fight: her comment.

It's not a big deal -

And It's the dominant reality.

I should join the Amish - they don't have to wear makeup, do they?

But they do have to bake alot of pies, don't they?:ohboy

-Marigold:sun

[Marigold]

PS:
It should be duly noted that I'm not *required* to wear makeup for my job either (talk about fun: actaully working in a place where you Have to).

My job is very laid-back.

So...I'm aging. My face doesn't look like a dewy young rose anymore (although i also remember a friend saying to me to put on makeup - when I was in High School).

It's not just a few undiplomatic people here - it's about the *expectations* for women - how they should look and even behave.

(The Predominant)Reality (of how a woman is "supposed" to look) bites.
-Marigold:sun

[scilliegurl]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff

I would be pissed if someone said that to me. In fact, I don't like it when anyone says *anything* about my appearance, even if it's remotely positive. I'll say "thanks," but without enthusiasm. It's a big boundary issue for me. I manipulate the tone of that "thanks" too, to say "Uhhh...ok." If I say anything more than that, it'll teach them that I give a shit what they say. I don't want that.

Now I have to fight something I didn't want to fight

In a broader sense, this is my recovery journey. :ugh I didn't want to fight my mother--for real or in my head...or my sister...or my negative thinking...or anything else.

I do think you have to "fight back" against these people. Especially the ones you work with. It WILL make your life easier, because it will make your work environment more comfortable for you. I figure, I don't care what they think, but they need to know that they don't speak to me like that.

When was the last time you kicked a little ass when someone got out of line? :grin You might have to put on your ass-kicking shoes for a while.

That's not a mean thing. That's an educational thing for them. This woman seriously needs it.

Have you ever read any feminism? When you mentioned the "gaze," it sparked me because in literary theory and philosophy, it's used to refer to the power of looking. It's referenced in texts on British imperialism wherein the British were bothered by, say, veiled women. The argument goes that they were particularly threatened because the women would not permit themselves to be seen. It's like the power of the voyeur--to see and yet not BE seen. It's why we're taught not to stare at people--it's rude. Why rude? Because it makes others uncomfortable and scrutinized.

I know you mean it a bit more generally than the literal act of "looking," but both can go hand in hand.

Have you ever checked out Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth? I haven't read it in a long time, but I've always noticed a bit of a feminist slant to your posts and I'm thinking you might get a lot from reading some foundational texts. I'm a feminist from way back, and I think it has always positively informed my life.

I hope your day gets better. Please ignore the loser who has shitty social skills!!!

:lubdub
Scillie

[Marigold]

Thanks:starsScillie:stars,

Your response made me feel brigher in mood!

This is funny:muhaha

"When was the last time you kicked a little ass when someone got out of line? You might have to put on your ass-kicking shoes for a while."

I think I got my point across to her when I emphatically said: "I don't want to wear makeup"! (and I don't - at least for today - and any other day Idon't feel like putting it on).

You know, I, personally, do not mind a reasonable compliment - something along the lines of: "you look nice in that outfit" or "that's a very nice color on you". For me I'm okay with this.

I really Don't like it if someone tells me:
"You look like I feel!" (Yes! Someone actually Told me that. And I knew they felt like:ugh!!!)

You are right - in such instances a little ass kicking is well in order.

I handled That situation by saying w/ironic enthusiasm - well, you must feel GREAT!:winky

As for the "gaze" - I do mean it in the way you talk about. My latest book - on cosmetic surgery and the age of the ageless celebrity that we all live in - is called "Flesh Wounds" - and it's great.

I've heard of "The Beauty Myth" - but have yet to read it.

I am a feminist - in the most positive, man-loving, lip-stick wearing (and Not wearng) way that can be seen!

I actually think men are beginning to suffer under the "gaze" as well - although women have always been pinned by it's cold glance.
We all have it - we've been indoctrinated w/it - when we pick apart ourselves and celebrities and others - and it sucks.
-Marigold:sun

[yoshimi]

I can't believe that woman had the nerve to comment on your appearance like that! Good for you for speaking back!

I am a feminist - in the most positive, man-loving, lip-stick wearing (and Not wearng) way that can be seen!
I love this! This is exactly how I would describe my feminism. I read the Beauty Myth a while ago and I really enjoyed it.

I can never get away from this "gaze" that seems to follow me everywhere, always ready to pounce on my flaws. So how do we, especially as ED sufferers, deal with this? Do I make an effort to tell every person who comments on my appearance that I don't want to hear those comments? Do I try to ignore it? Appearance is such a huge part of our culture that I don't think I can get away from it. And I guess thinking about appearance isn't really bad. It nice to like what you are wearing and feel comfortable with your body. But being judged by appearance and being forced to set our standards of beauty on some cultural ideal is hard to deal with.

You've brought up some interesting ideas...

Enjoy the rest of your make-up free day!

[Marigold]

Hi :starsMartha:stars,

" So how do we, especially as ED sufferers, deal with this? Do I make an effort to tell every person who comments on my appearance that I don't want to hear those comments? Do I try to ignore it? Appearance is such a huge part of our culture that I don't think I can get away from it. And I guess thinking about appearance isn't really bad. It nice to like what you are wearing and feel comfortable with your body. But being judged by appearance and being forced to set our standards of beauty on some cultural ideal is hard to deal with."

I so agree - and part of me gets a little "needly and dependent" on the positive (well, sort of comments) that come my way - *Especially* if I lose any weight.

(I don't think I'm alone in this. I think this is why many find the comments that occur during and after weight loss so hard to deal with).

I think the problem is not how we look - it's that an *over-valuing" of a sort of "perfect* kind of looks gets emphasized - and we are all affected by it - whether we "give in to it" or rebel against it - or somewhere in between those two.

I don't have any answers - but I am enjoying my "makeup-free" day after all!

I may go "natural" everyday!
And why the hell not?
(Of course, part of me enjoys makeup too).
-Marigold:sun

[Jennnifer]

:stars Marigold :stars

I agree you need to buy a pair of ass-kicking shoes.

I get the feeling there is some vibe about you that allows these people to think they can make passive-aggressive comments about you to your face.

Sure, you said you didn't WANT to wear make up...

But, what if you had said...

"I find that comment very passive-aggressive. I don't care how you think I look. I didn't want to wear make up today, and for the future, if you dont' like the way I look, don't try to make up adjectives like "different". Just keep it to yourself."

See?

LOL

That's where the ass-kicking shoes come in!

:peace

[leana]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff

ok.. I've got a pair of shit-kickers (ass-kicking cow-girl boots) that you can have.. :kick

But.. really, I read threw your posts ('cause I often find what you say is in-sightful and real..) and yet I think I've read enough about your co-workers comments, to want to stomp over there with my own shit-kickers and do some damage..

I think the problem is not how we look - it's that an *over-valuing" of a sort of "perfect* kind of looks gets emphasized - and we are all affected by it - whether we "give in to it" or rebel against it - or somewhere in between those two.

hhmm.. or what if it's the 'over-valuing' we tag on others comments. What if you put littl' to no value in what some one said, when they comment about your apperance..?

Have you ever asked yourself, how sallow, or insecure this co-worker may be about herself, if she has to point out the fact you didn't wear any make-up..?

Glad to hear you're enjoying a make-up free day.. you should be able to do what ever the hell you feel like doing. Whether it's the fact you woke up late had no time, or woke up too early and had too much time.. shit, blame it one the rain, even when it doesn't rain. What's it to 'em..?

:love

[ksara]

Oh boy! I get to help (hopefully anyway!) the one who helps me so much again!

Possible responses to this very rude, impolite, obviously has problems of her own but is a bitch nonetheless:

"Does it make you feel better to make others feel badly?"

"You know, I don't usually allow people to talk to me like that. This time I'm going to give you one more chance."

"What are ya', the fashion police?"

"Actually I think I look better with make-up off than most people look wearing make-up." (look pointedly at her very worse feature, stare intently while saying this and watch her do a little squirmy dance--hee hee)

or my infamous,

"Let me get you the number of my therapist. You definitely need help with your social skills. I care about you and want you to get the help you need."

And like I said last week over the rude guy encounter, let her take ownership of her own disgraceful behavior. Don't internalize it.

With love and respect to the "not a rose but still a beautiful flower" Marigold!

Ksara

[Dandy]

:hugonMarigold:hugoff

I really struggle with this myself, trying to figure out the right thing to say when I'm offended by someone's comments. But I wanted to offer you support and let you know you are not alone in receiving shit comments from insensitive flakes in the workplace. I'm very, very good at internalizing this comments, so I'm probably not the best person to give advice on it!! Just wanted to thank you for starting this thread, because it's given me some ideas of things I can practice saying out loud for when it's really showtime and I need to stop someone dead in their tracks and let them know they are woefully out of place with their comments.

I wish we had a shitkicker smilie!! I guess I'll use :cousinit, sorta looks like he's kickin' some ass...
:love to you!
Dandy

[MegaVictory]

I agree with Jennifer. Something in your aura invites these insults. But, don't know what to tell you to do, so people don't do this anymore. I have an invisible "Sucker here" sign on me, and now that I am aware that I have it, I am careful all the time, not to get suckered into stuff in my life, I don't want or need. Maybe if you realize this, toughen your exterior, so people will get a feeling like "eat shit and die," rather than "insult me now." What do you think?

[brighteyes ALW]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff


I woke up liking my frizzy hair, my unmade up face, my cool jewelry and my brightly colored t-shirt.

That put a big smile on my face. :supergrin I understand that a lot of women like and choose to wear make-up on a regular basis, but why is it so expected? Why again is there such an importance placed on appearances? I rather like and prefer the natural look, but really it shouldn't matter either way. I can't stand when someone comments me on my appearance, especially when it comes in the form of: "You'd be so pretty if..." That really hurts... am I not good enough just as I am? Why should anyone have to conform to some stupid standard of beauty? But how can this be changed? I'd love to throw some comments back at the women who spoke to you this morning, but more than that I would want to challenge her thinking.

[nikto]

she: oh, well you just look...*different*
you: it's just my radiant self finally shining through [,....BITCH]!

(Don't say that last bit, but definitely think it!)

***

she: oh, well you just look...*different*
you: i'm sorry. next time i'll consult with the office before making any changes.

or

you: i'm sorry. [caricatured grief counselor's voice] do you want to talk about it?

***

:hugonMarigold:hugoff, I'm so sorry you were hurt. I wholeheartedly agree with the other :fishy that your officemates need to learn they can't talk to you like this. With my mom--and this doesn't work all the time, but that may be a limit of hers, not mine--I try to use humor. Sarcasm. I take what she said and I pull it all the way out and reveal all its absurdity.

This evening she told me she thought my hair would look good with highlights. She has told me this, I do not exaggerate, at least once a month for the last decade--perhaps every few months when I was in Laos. (That she kept suggesting it in Laos is hilarious in and of itself!) This evening she repeated, Maybe it's because I'm right. Maybe your hair would look better with highlights. And I replied that it's a matter of opinion, and I'm sure my hair would look better to her if it had highlights. But I had just been talking about how haircuts were a big expense for me--my hair grows really fast, and I like keeping it short--and highlights and similar treatments are definitely not in the picture for grad school! I said, Mom, maybe in twenty years, when I have discretionary income, I will be sitting in the hair salon, knowing something is not quite right, but unable to divine what my hair really needs. And from the far reaches of my mind I will recall the follicular guidance my mother tried to instill in me when I was a naive, insolent young woman: My hair needs highlights. And perhaps then, after suffering unknowingly for so long from such dull hair, I will see the life-transforming power of highlights and truly appreciate your wisdom. But I have not yet reached that stage in my quest. I must grapple in the darkness.

It's more corny than witty or pointed, but it still shut her up about highlights, and it made my sister crack up.

Dish it back, :hugonMarigold:hugoff. It's good for them and great for you.

Sarah

[Marigold]

Thanks for these replies :stars:fishy's:stars.

I don't think there's something in my "aura" or whatever that invites (or deserves) looks assessments from people.

I also don't go out of my way to constantly "defend my turf" be it my looks or whatever. It takes alot of work and frankly, it bores me.

I Could have Easily reamed into this woman if I wanted to. I could have "put her in her place" w/no problem. I've done it before when *I* felt the need - with different people -

But it takes energy that annoys me to have to use.

I guess I should have just let that comment roll off my back like water off a duck.

But such comments bore their way in to my psyche - because we women are trained to be evaluated on how we look. All of us.

Of all the comments I've received as "feedback" to that women (and I thank you all for some pretty good - and funny! suggestions) - I like this one the most:

"she: oh, well you just look...*different*
you: i'm sorry. next time i'll consult with the office before making any changes."

Brilliant! Thanks :starsNikto:stars!

Also - a calm statement of assurance would have been in order - something along the lines:

"I like the way I look."

The woman in question who made that comment is not a bitch, per se. She has always been *nice* to me - and has never seen like the type who is only nice to your face - and believe me, I can see this type a mile off. And all the other types as well.

It's always the ones who are kind people (and I think she actually is in many ways) who "get" you the most - because you don't see any sort of "attack" or whatever coming.

You don't see it coming.

For all I know, she might have been thinking she was helping me out!:ohboy

Help like *that* I don't need.

I've had a lifetime of this shit - and it is Not my fault.
People have felt free to comment on my looks - good and bad.
I've been told I'm beautiful - and I've been told I'm ugly.
I've run the whole friggin gauntlet so I have some insight into all of this and it is this:

The more you get identified w/how you look - (good or bad) the more you feel like you don't really inhabit your body - it's something that you "present" to others.

For Them to pass judgement on. Or acceptance.

And I tell you: if I had said something along the lines of: well, I think I look great - better w/o the makeup!

People around me hearing this (including the woman) would have thought I was a bit :wacky - because - in terms of fitting the standard of current beauty requirements (that all women are aware of and most try to fulfill in Some manner - including me) I'm obviously *quite a failure*.

The ole: you've really given up on yourself, haven't you? - comes into the play.
Also: she's really let herself go.

I do agree w/this: the inner self-hatred of me gets reflected - sometimes in very jarring ways indeed - by external comments from others.

Whether or not this means I "bring them on" - well I'm less willing to put that particular well-meaning but damning judgement on me.

Maybe people just feel they have the right to comment on someone who doesn't fit the mold - you know?

Instead of kicking back - I wonder if I could ever just take myself out of the fight?

Ah yes, that is the question.

There are people who would have let that comment mean *nothing* to them - because, in all likelihood, these are the people who don't put much emphasis on appearances.
They might have felt a momentary flare u[ of embarrassement - but then just shrugged it off.

There Are women who just don't care - don't wear makeup and don't *want* to.

I am a woman who *does* care about my appearance - I *like* to look nice and I enjoy well-meaning compliments.

For the most part.

I often feel crushed by all the appearance obsession I have - and really, most women have.
For all of us it's like a constant, nagging worry - often pushed underground, but still humming and throbbing like a live wire underneath there - summed up by "how we look".

Sometimes I think: will it end when i'm very very old? But then I hear Henrietta, my next door neighbor who's eighty-one making comments to her friends: "you don't want to eat that, you're gonna get FAT!" and the like.

Shit, am I supposed to get in Her face too if she dishes me out some garbage like that?

It's a battle I never wanted to be in - this whole looks assessment thing.

I hear this self-disgust (and battle fatigue) from so many here.

It really bites, doesn't it?

:starsJennnifer:stars,

I feel your suggestion on what to say would have been overkill w/this particular woman - but I realize you do not know her and offered me that come-back as a way of wanting to help me shore up my feelings about myself. I appreciate that alot - and I might use those words in some other situation!

:starsLeana:stars,

I do question the content of such comments - all the time. And yet I still am deeply affected by them - I don't mean to be, yet I am. And I agree - what does it really matter that I don't have make-up on? And yet....it seems to matter alot in some obscure and yet deeply important way:wacky!

:starsKsara:stars,

You advise me - "Don't internalize it." Yet I feel I've internalized it since the day I was born, almost. Haven't we all? . I don't know what the *solution* is yet - but I think I will find *some solution* - maybe there is not just one golden way of dealing w/all this.

:starsDandy:stars,

I struggle too, over what to say, how to say it, how not to come off looking too "defensive" (when inwardly I'm seething and feeling that all-to-familiar "shame" a women gets to feel when she doesn't "measure up" in somebody's eyes)...
Thanks for thanking me for starting this thread. I know it's helping me look even deeper into all of ths.

:starsMegaVictory:stars,

You bring up some excellent points. Again, I don't like "blaming the victim" for attacks on ourselves - but it's interesting. You get suckered into doing more than you want to - and people sense this. It is hard to fight because there are also *rules* about how caring and helping and nurturing women are supposed to be.

Also:

As a woman I *like* to help others - but I also need to maintain my boundaries.
As a woman I also *like* to look good - but I want to do this at least to some degree on my *own terms* and even more than that -

I don't want to always look good.

Oh my god! But that's the truth.

While I don't want feedback from others on how "not good" I'm looking - I still want to be released from the edict of:

"looking good".

Can really this be done? And not in a tiring "rebelling" sort of way (tiring to Me).

I notice that even women who don't wear make-up still take pains with their weight - and beyond just health - they are doing their best to look good and "pass muster".

:starsbrighteyes:stars,

I want to challenge such thinking too - but it goes underneath our skins and is second nature to all of us.
And its not like it's bad to look good or want to - what sucks, in my opinion, is Having to bloody well look good all the fucking time - in one way or another. Damn!

:starsNikto:stars,

I support you as you "grapple in the darkness" of non-highlighted hair!:muhaha
Someday, my child, perhaps you will see...that those highlights are tres expensive and get to be an annoying habit - but can still be fun and yes, "brighten" a look - If that is desired (and again there is this godly voice intoning in my head: But HOW could this NOT be desired???):ohboy

It's not just MY voice.That's what I'm trying to say.


There is one more thing:
This woman comes from the same area of the world that a man does who once said to me:

"Gee, if you were in -----, people would come up to you and just say: "why arent you married, why don't you have children....

Why Are You So FAT????"

:ugh(Again, these comments so often come when others are around)

Of course, he forced himself on both my supervisor and myself when we were in a meeting, plopped himself down on a chair and proceeded to chit-chat -and then drop that bomb on me.

I think I said:

Well, I'm not In ------, am I????? (dipshit!!!)

I purposely leave out the country so as not to come across as "picking on anybody" - but I think it's interesting that many places in the world have the same rigid (or more rigid) standards of appearance rules for women - and seem to be alot less shy about telling women when they've "violated" them.

I also think there are loads of people walking around in all kinds of guises who are more than willing to dump some shit on...whoever evokes some anxiety/fear/annoyance/confusion in them.

So I must remember this the Next time it happnes to me - and it will.

But it's damn hard to - when every night the boob tube is showing "makeovers" to anyone who's not dead yet, practically.

Thanks for "listeing" :fishy's - it all helps me to have this outlet alot.

-Marigold:sun

[saralee]

:hugon :hugon Marigold :hugoff :hugoff

Marigold, YOU CRACK ME UP SOMETIMES!

I should join the Amish - they don't have to wear makeup, do they?

But they do have to bake alot of pies, don't they?


See how witty you are ? Ha ha ha ha ha! :muhaha

I agree that in general too many women seem to be programmed to focus only on looks. It's like the most important thing about us is the way we look: which is such a farse! We're so much more than that! It reminds me of another Ani DiFranco song. She is a woman who seems to understand through her poetry some of the challenges of being a woman in our looks obsessed society. The song is called, of all things, "Pick Yer Nose"...

I think pretty is nice
but I'd rather see something new
all these plastic people
got their plastic surgery
but we got a big big beautiful
we got it for free
who you gonna be
if you can't be yourself
you can't get it from t.v.
you can't force it on
anybody else

'cause I'm not going to pretend
that I don't pick my nose
that's just the way it is, my friends
that's just the way it goes
this is who I am
what I do
and what I say
if you like it, let it be
if you don't, please do the same
I fight with love
I laugh with rage
you gotta live light enough to see the humour
and long enough to see some change

Those last two lines remind me of you, Marigold because even in your most upset of posts, you always throw something really funny in there. It shows what a survivor, what a fighter you are.
:kick :kick :kick :kick :kick :kick :kick :kick :kick

I just want to say that it sounds like some of the women you work with are seriously preoccupied with looks. There are definately plenty of women out there, including me, who rarely if ever wear makeup. Women at my work really fix up for work, and I simply don't. I have more important and interesting things to think about and do than spend an hour a day on my appearance. Of course, brush my hair and iron my clothes, but I'm most often a pony tail and jeans girl. It's been sort of a source of strenghth for me, as stange as that may sound. I mean, I am PROUD of myself that I can see the beauty of Sara without having to fuss a lot over myself. Sometimes its harder to find, for sure! But I'm happy that I don't feel like I have to fix up to see my own beauty.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID THAT MORNING, WHEN YOU GOT UP AND DID NOT PUT ON MAKEUP AND SAID,

"I woke up liking my frizzy hair, my unmade up face, my cool jewelry and my brightly colored t-shirt"

This is what it's all about! As long as you liked your look, that's all that matters! And I know this sounds cliche, but I swear it works: The more you like what you see in the mirror the more beautiful you become, because you come to a place of acceptance, which necessitates change of things about yourself that you don't like.

By the way, didn't your co-worker's mother ever teach her that if you don't have something nice to say about someone, then don't say anything at all? I mean, I don't condone walking around like a pollyanna all the time and being all niceness and sunshine, but geez! How rude of her to say what she said. She was way out of line.

Keep it up Marigold! I think you are doing some important work!

:love Sara :bandwagon

[Marigold]

:starsSara:stars,

It's just amazing what people will say to us at times, isn't it?

I think it's way more about them than about the one they are saying it to.

I can see this more clearly today but I'm still glad I started this thread because I think women are so often assessed on their looks - covertly and, ah, er, Not so covertly:ohboy

And it's really good to explore that.

It's hard because women are *taught* to overvalue their looks - so when somone *zings* you w/a comment it can cause one to question their core self.

I don't think eds are just about overeating - or whatever - they are also about looks. And yes, emotions, definately. But definately also fear of how we look.

Saralee - Thankyou also for validating my spirit - a spirit that can fight for my rights and boundaries when I need to - a spirit that endures - and

Yes, I like to be funny too! So glad you enjoy my humor!

I'm really :touched that you noticed...

Thanks again!
-Marigold:sun

[ksara]

"I think it's more about them than who they are saying it to"

EXACTLY! This isn't about YOU, it's about her, about her own insecurities, her own judgments, it is HER problem (or anyone's problem who feels compelled to cut someone down).

You might be surprised, if you could reach that state (if I could reach that state) where WE ARE NOT OUR BODIES, we are not our beauty, we are not other's judgments.

Congratulations on feeling good about yourself "au naturel" (sp?) the other day--keep up the good work! And thank you thank you thank you for your wonderful sense of humor!

Hugs to you,

Ksara

[nikto]

I think it's interesting that many places in the world have the same rigid (or more rigid) standards of appearance rules for women - and seem to be alot less shy about telling women when they've "violated" them.

I also think there are loads of people walking around in all kinds of guises who are more than willing to dump some shit on...whoever evokes some anxiety/fear/annoyance/confusion in them.

Yes yes yes. Great points. I have terrible memories about judgments made on women in my travels. Really mind-bogglingly overt discrimination and condemnation of them as people for not looking a certain way. It's very sad.

What you said about your eighty one year old neighbor made me think of my grandmothers. They're both still neck deep in worry about weight and looks. One started discussing the calories on her plate while we ate Thanksgiving dinner. :sad It is too easy to internalize and then perpetuate this garbage. We need to recognize and reject lookism consciously. At least in my family, THE BUCK STOPS HERE. :sarcasm

As others have written, thank you for your humor and insight--this is a very interesting thread.

Sarah

p.s. Your officemate kinda reminds me of one of my friends in h.s., if I'm inferring her intent correctly. This friend would remark some mornings, "Sarah, what's WRONG??! You look HORRIBLE!" What's funny is it never correlated with the mornings I felt horrible. I realized it correlated with the mornings I forgot to apply bronzer/blush and/or concealer for my eye circles. I was too embarrassed to talk about my makeup openly with some people, so I said nothing. But I remember finding her comments really, really depressing for a while. Some people are a little clueless.

[Marigold]

:starsKsara:stars,

I so appreciate your support - but when I hear (or see:winky) someone say: "we are not our bodies" I always feel confused.

We Are our bodies - it's just that we are not Only our bodies.

Let's face it - it's not easy to age in this culture and it's not fun to know that someone out there doesn't like how you look sans makeup - even if you, yourself don't care.

These issues hit us where we often feel weakest - our looks.

But you know what? Like :starsNikto:stars says - let the "buck stop here" - if that's even possible in this :wacky world. I think to some real extent it is.

Listen you guys - if I sound confused over all this it's because I am - it's all so wrapped up in what I am not *supposed to care about* - but I do (my looks) and yet, at the same time I don't want to be a slave in any way to the beauty queen - the inner and external bitch who's always harping on all of us about our hair, looks, body, clothes,...etc ad nauseum.

Separating from this bitch/queen/goddess/star/whore is not easy - we All get assessed now on how we "stack up" compared to the latest makeover, plastic-surgery wonder.

Besides which - I *Like* to look pretty too - so how far do I want to separate from the Beauty Queen? - certainly I don't want to wear a bag over my head or join a commune or whatever.

I know I'm alot more than my body - but I am also my body. And I hate not fitting in (and being told about it or suffering for it).

Yet that's the game - have the right "look" and you get a pass for "normal" and "stable" - even if you are a wreck inside - as so many flawless porcelain doll gym queens are - inside where no one sees them.

But part of me admires someone who can hold it all together in terms of her looks. Guess that's my "weakness" - or not????

It's all weird. But I like to think and write about it - even debate it a bit w/anyone (w/o arguing) - because I think this is so multi-angled - as :starsNikto:stars says - yes, some people just Are clueless - but as she also concurs - the world itself is dancing to this whole "standards of beauty" thing - and woe to the one who actually ends up in a place where the locals are not so shy about critiquing women's bodies - and by extension - their minds and souls too.

I just want to say: enough.

Yet the sickness is so deep in my soul - I was raised this way - to overvalue my looks and at the same time feel weakest in this area.

Being fat only complicates it all.
As for aging - ditto!

Oh well - tomorrow's another day:winky (to quote Scarlet O'Hara, I think, - a woman who knew how to use her looks to achieve her aims - but wasn't the kind of person you'd want to trust too much.)
-Marigold:sun

[ksara]

okay, I give up, you can BE YOUR BODY!!!

However, you are not someone's judgment of you. Think of it this way, what if someone hated your eye color? Would that make you feel ashamed? So why does someone judging your not wearing makeup, or what this is really about, your size, make you feel so embarrassed and defensive? I'm saying that anyone's evaluation of your appearance isn't correct, it is only that person's prejudices, background, insecurities, etc. speaking out. That doesn't make it right, and it's easier for me to explain it than to believe it myself, but we really aren't something just because people think we are? Does that make sense?

I mean we can rant and rave about society's expectations, the fashion magazines, and want to be Amish (still cracking up over that one--but think about what makes you think that would be better, it's because they CHOOSE not to value what others think of their appearance)

So go Amish, sweet Marigold, choose to not give a damn about the evaluation process going on in other people's head (or possibly your perceived evaluation that you think is going on in their head--most people are so worried about themselves they don't have the energy to expend on YOU. It is almost flattering when someone does expend energy on another person because it indicates they feel threatened) Go dance naked in your garden, don't wear makeup unless you feel like it, know that I envy your "frizzy hair" (mine is quite straight and thin--the only thin part of me, hee hee) and eat chocolate in the bathtub when you feel like it. Love yourself!
REALLY!

Hugs, Ksara

[leana]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff

Your right, you are your body. With out one, would inhibit your ability to even have a job :winky
But... being conforatible with you, and having that same confort in your own skin is much different then living by some one elses standards.
Yes, dressing up, looking good and wearing make, is something we've been taught. Yet, I will dress up, wear make up and look good in my own individual way. I don't want to look like the other woman walking down the street, whom may be wearing the same pair of jeans, but only three sizes smaller. That's what she wants to wear, look like, and how she may feel she looks good.
Going with the trends, wearing the 'instyle' thing is ok. When you truly like the style.. if not, then why wear something you don't care for (and why even buy something you don't like.. )

That's what 'carring about your looks' is about. What you like, what you think looks good on you, and how good it make you feel when you look that way.



I've read many of your posts, and you've mentioned that at this weight your not happy. Not just unhappy with the comments you recieve, yet even physically hurting.
Hun, change comes from with in (and I know that I'm telling you something you've probably heard many times..) to change your appearance for some 'ideal' that has been ingrained in your mind, will end as a futile journey. The more these comments and this ideal is clung on to, the more regrets you'll cling to. The more you may hate who you are, the more you may push yourself to change. But their 'ideal' you just can't seem to fit in.. and so the journey ends, regresion begins, and the cycle comes full circle.
Marigold, you are ment to follow a different journey. One that you want to travel along, one, physically and emotionally you can travel. And to know where you want to go, is when you stop listening.


I don't put up a fight when some one judges my appearane.. it's quite frankly a waist of time (simillar to how you view this). They are intitled to their opinion, as I am mine. And their comments only show defects in their own thinking. Their journey's pretty long, with all the ideals they hold so tight. I don't want to be that defective... I want to be content in who I am and with what I do. Physically and emotionally.

I sware, when you find yourself being content with who you are.. you're able also to view people in a different manner... All of a sudden, size doesn't determine how active the person is, or isn't. It doesn't determine whether they live allown, or have many partners.. all that matters is the person in side the shell. Getting to know some one, changes meaning..

So.. in a way, yes.. you are your body. But.. I can say this.. Marigold, you are much more then your body.. much more the some one elses ideals. And untill that sinks in, your body will be much more of you then it is suppose to.

:love

[minionSheep]

What a beautiful post this is!!

In a way, I am happy to have reached it late... I got to read all the rest of your wisdoms and contributions before replying. And you're all so smart! And so fantastically strong! It's amazing that we are all here on an "eating disorder recovery" board, which is normally stigmatized as a place of weakness... We really are the cream of the crop aren't we? :supergrin

I find that, at least in my experience, confidence really DOES equal attractiveness. Yeah, there are culturally-conceived notions of beauty, but humans are generally a lot smarter than that. If you feel more confident wearing no makeup ("this is ME, world, let the breeze blow across my own true skin") then MORE POWER TO YOU, honestly. I find that, for me, it varies day to day whether or not I want to wear makeup. I like to switch up my "looks" a lot, and sometimes I walk out of the house looking probably a lot like a clown, and sometimes I walk out of the house looking relatively boyish. It matters less and less to me as I mature and realize that outside looks are really not what it is all about.

Good looks seem to be a talent, an attribute, a "strength", much as is natural musical skill, natural artistic ability or natural adeptness at juggling. Some things, we seem to be born good at. Everybody's got different strengths and weaknesses, and beauty may just be one of them. We all know of someone gorgeous who is a knob-head, or somebody who's not very attractive at ALL but that is one of the most prized, respectable, most glowingly special people you can imagine. There's nothing wrong with that!! And while we should all be able to go out looking *our best*, whatever that means to us at the time, we shouldn't be trying to make up for our other strengths and weaknesses just in the looks department. That goes too, Marigold, for the person who offed you at work because you didn't have makeup on. Sheesh, you couldn't have looked THAT different without cosmetics!! Maybe the girl was truly just jealous that you had the nerve to leave the house looking as fresh and natural as the day you popped out of your mother's womb. Give it a think!!

Screw what everyone else thinks of as beautiful. Anybody worth any of our time will eventually see past that anyway. Good looks are just the wrapping on the package. If you really want to enjoy the gift, you tear all those preconceived notions off and enjoy what's really under there (that sounds perverted!! forgive me).

This post is wicked-cool, really inspirational and I appreciate all of your existences!!!

Nicole :rat

[Marigold]

I appreciate the responses. Right now, especially, I am feeling overwhelmed, overloaded and probably defensive - because other stuff is going on at work - little "turf wars" are flaring up that are making me quite anxious - and I'm also getting the message that I am not especially valuable where I work.

All this, plus physical pain and difficulites, are making me feel very small inside.

:starsKsara:stars,

I did not mean to put You on the defensive - I was just being honest about that whole "you're not your body" thing people get into here - and elsewhere. There is truth to it - but it's not the whole story, not for me. And when I'm really hurting inside - such platitudes cannot really help me.

The fact is, we are often rigorously judged on our looks - and it's not so easy to *always* igore or brush that off.

Another fact is, if my body is hurting me (and it has been) then it will be in the *forefront* of my existence - and no matter how dilligently I tell myself "I am not my body" - well, that won't make much difference. When the body roars - we'd best pay attention!

Beyond that - w/o my body I don't exist in the physical world (beyond this world - I hope so - but who knows? Not me...not yet!).

I hope you realize that I do appreciate your feedback (and all feedback) to my posts. I know how important it is to feel validated.
Sometimes, though, I think that certain *sayings* need to be critically evaluated - I know for myself, I have to do this. It's not about anything other then that :hugonKsara:hugoff - and again, I thank you for your contributions to this thread very much!

:starsLeana:stars,

This Really resonates w/me:

"The more you may hate who you are, the more you may push yourself to change. But their 'ideal' you just can't seem to fit in.. and so the journey ends, regresion begins, and the cycle comes full circle.
Marigold, you are ment to follow a different journey. One that you want to travel along, one, physically and emotionally you can travel. And to know where you want to go, is when you stop listening."
( I feel like I need to emblazon these words into my heart - to REALLY know the truth of them).

"But their "ideal" you just can't seem to fit in...and so the journey ends, regression begins, and the cycle comes full circle" -
Leana this is EXACTLY what happened to me w/my weight loss (oh i just can't wait til i'm thin, til i look "good" til they get jealous and see that yes! i am also a fox a babe a chick a broad a whatever - a really desirable woman! then they will see will see will see)... then I lose alot of weight and see that my poor body Still will not fit into their standards of what is really attractive (and plus, now I have alot of New impositions put on me) - and then I feel hopeless - turn to food - and gain it all back.

What a valuable lesson it's all been for me now that I see I was never meant to follow their path!

Yes, like so many others I told myself that weight loss was all about my health - when all along it was *mainly* about my looks.

Yes, this makes alot of sense to me - the longer I live the more I see this. I feel like "ideals" were *imposed* on me from long ago - ideals of such that we are all aware of - they get imposed on every woman - and the further away from them you are - the more you can suffer - until you see that your life was Never Meant to follow along *those* ideals! (Be they physical, emotional or mental *ideals* - if they are not Yours than they are an imposition).

But it taken me a long time to just *begin* to REALLY understand this (not just w/my head - that was accomplished a long time ago when I knew I didn't "fit in" - but w/my heart and soul).

Some of the commonly accepted ideals of looks, beauty and whatever I DO like and accpet - and many I don't, just to complicate things!

It's hard - being of a high weight, having looks that stray from the ideal (I can't tell you all how many times, over the course of my lifetime thus far - I've been told: you are pretty - you are ugly - in various ways).

Not having a ring on my finger (marriage) is another thing. No matter how shitty a marriage may be: a woman can wear that ring and the world sees: she is desirable by some man.

And these things are still huge influences in women's lives - despite people not overtly acknowledging all this anymore.

It often hurts to not fit in.

Had I my own niche it would be different, I know.
Of course, finding it will take me the rest of my lifetime. They don't tell you that the "normal" path is not necessarily the right one for You.

:starsMinionSheep:stars,

Thank you so much for your contribution to my thread! I feel great that you have gotten alot out of all the responses and so forth.
I am honored that so many :fishy's feel a desire to respond, as well.

Like I've said - all this is complicated for me - and I'm bound and determined to really think through all this stuff and really get to the heart of it - I really got to hash all this stuff out for myself - and make it work for Me!

I'm glad I can do that here.

-Marigold:sun

[Dandy]

Hi :starsMarigold:stars!!

So, I missed most of this thread over the weekend and come in to work this morning to find it's turned into a most beautiful discussion!

I don't have much time to respond, but wanted to throw in just a couple of things. First is something I do when I need to balance my thoughts about womens' bodies and societal/cultural expectations placed on them. I spend my lunch hour at a book store, paging through classic art and photography. The pictures of women at all shapes and sizes, depicted so beautifully really throws my thoughts about my own body into perspective. And it reminds me that women have always been trying to measure up to some standard. Which may sound depressing, but wait, it gets better! In thinking that, I realize how very lucky we are to be living in the time we do, in which we are allowed and encouraged and honored to question the ideals put forth by mass media.

Also, I wanted to point out this quote:

Not having a ring on my finger (marriage) is another thing. No matter how shitty a marriage may be: a woman can wear that ring and the world sees: she is desirable by some man.
When my first marriage was failing, I had that ring on my finger, and have never felt less desirable in my life. I was so undesirable that even my own husband didn't want me around any longer. This may be totally off topic to point out, but I figured it's fair game since you put it out there. I just wanted to point out an assumption that perhaps you might question. And if you can question an assumption like this, maybe questioning of some others might begin, as in questioning of the beauty ideal altogether. We've been targeted to buy into the beauty culture, and most of us have fallen hook, line and sinker. But we CAN regain perspective on it, by thinking it through carefully and coming together in groups of beautiful, intelligent women like this one here in our very :bowl to discuss why *we* get to choose the standards we want to live up to, and why those standards needn't have a thing to do with mascara unless we choose for them to.

Okay, I just want to say before I put this out there that I'm a little nervous about talking about my divorce like I did. I hope you don't take my comment the wrong way, that quote in particular just hit very close to home for me, so I wanted to point it out.

Love, Dandy

[Marigold]

:hugonDandy:hugoff,

Sweetie - I do not Mind in the Least that you brought up your divorce (and as you say - I Did put it out there about the ring on the finger and all that - however, I would not have minded anyway).

You threw a "reality check" my way - and I heed it, believe me I do.

I firmly believe that a woman (and a man) is much better off alone - then in an unhappy marriage - unless the marriage has real potential to become fulfilling. If not, it's better to get the hell out.

Not that divorce is just a snap of the fingers.

But I do deeply believe - better to be out than trapped in a loveless marriage.

I guess I was speaking about the *general assumption* (which is still in effect) that women are meant to be married - and are better off that way. Most people seem to think this - including yours truly!

I feel like this:cry - that I've never gotten to wear a marriage band on my finger - not that it's about the ring - just what the ring symbolized (although I do love rings - special rings. They don't have to be rocks!).

Anyway - I :love your idea and practice of going to the bookstore - I also love to research history a bit - what I find out is that the Impressionists painted large women w/cellulite - Marilyn Monroe would be considered "fat" by today's Hollywood standdards - and that the earliest thing worshipped, apparently by men And women - is the Willendorf Venus (spelling?) who looks - well who looks like she's been stopping at McDonalds a bit too often!

I love history and I love the diversty of women's bodies - but I do not love my own body, sadly.

And that is why that bullship makeup comment hit me so deeply.

But how great to post about it and get a good conversation of sorts, going.
Thanks Dandy for your response!
-Marigold:sun

[leana]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff

I'm a littl' late replying to this, I've been out of town.. but, I hope you know I'm not just trying to beat a dead horse.
I'm glad you related to what I had said.. it's what happens to most people when the recover for the wrong reason. (( In AA meetings you'll learn that in the first few moments.. you have to be there for your sanity & well being, not for the sake of another. ))
In relation to following your own path, I feel a lot of mine, is realizing life is so much more the holding any 'ideal'.. whether it be influenced, or created by myself. I believe that death (that of a loved one, or of some one you know) is the largest eye opener. It allows one to see the basics of life again. We lose sight of that.. alot.
If your able to hold to those basics, take the most important things in life, and cherish that.. ideals dissapear. They seem meaningless... you begin to see what life is, and what life isn't.
When your ready, that's what the beginning of your journey will hold... the valuables YOU hold in life.
It often hurts to not fit in.

I know this.. all to well. And I think that every fish here could agree and relate to that.
Why not try not fitting in.. and letting others fit to you..?
I believe there's a orha (sp?) surrounding some one who's confident, one that holds their head high. I believe (and have had this happen, not only in my case, but that of others I know) no matter what your body size, or 'defects' this person may have, if they carry themselves with confidence of who they are, people will be enticed to fit in to that persons ideals.
Not to say, confidence is always knowing where your going.. no.. it's knowing who you are as a person, and being ok with that, knowing what you can acomplish, knowing what your worth. And people fit to a person like this, because it's something they can't seem to find, this confidence..


As for the wedding ring.. (( I just got back in to town from my honeymoon..)) now.. I'm telling you this, because this is how I veiw wearing that ring.
Our relationship complements me. It doesn't make me, nor does it give me a higher value.. he doesn't create who I am.
But, we complement each other. In our relationship, and how we act when we're not around each other. I could stand in the middle of a crowded room, wearing a ring, and be lost with who I am.. and the ring wouldn't mean a damn thing. I know who I am, I know who he is, and we complement each other when we're one.
(( if this makes any since.. ))

:love

[Marigold]

Hi :starsLeana:stars,

Thanks for replying.

In terms of finding a mate - I think alot depends on how one looks - at least initially, in terms of attracting that mate. This goes for men and women - and includes such things as money and social status as well.

The facts are - if one is morbidly obese - all kinds of things become problematical, not the least of which is it being much harder to advance in one's job and/or find a mate.

And, even in a relationship, if a woman starts to put on alot of weight - or in some way lose her attractiveness - for alot of men, this will be a problem - even if they don't want it to be.


My aura - I have no problem w/my aura really. I may not be walking around in a cloud of confidence - but I know how to stand up for my self - and I know what my values are - and, especially now w/some distance from that makeup comment - I know that it reflects upon the woman who said it - not me.

When people behave badly I think we should realize that and not wonder if our "auras" are somehow "making" them behave that way.

So that is my goal - to keep the behavior w/the other person much more - and not blame myself for their crappy behavior.

As a woman in a looks-obsessed world - it is hurtful to hear another woman tell you: "better put some(makeup)on".

But at least *I* am not the one who made that comment. I would never hurt a person's feelings like that - commenting on how they look in a negative fashion - and also take it upon myself to dictate to another how they should look, like she did to me.
-Marigold:sun

[neene]

Marigold -

First I gotta tell you that I LOVE your posts.. From the first day I stopped by the [fishbowl] to now, you are my fav.

Second, this woman is beneath contempt. WTF does she think she is?

Of course, if she said it to me, I'm not sure I could say anything back. And I'm not sure she meant to be hurtful -- she was just looking to make conversation and this was her misguided attempt. Any other interpretation is too horrible, and maddenning to contemplate.

Have you said anything to her about this?

I'm not sure who said it first about men, too, sufferring the Gaze, but I believe they're right and I believe the Gaze to be responsible for the Backlash (recent weight gain in men)

And here is a funny thought that just occurred to me: Is weight our BURKA?

Love, Neen

[Marigold]

Hey, :starsNeen:stars,

I'm really really honored if :fishy's tell me they love reading my posts - because, for one thing, I am not perfect, far from it - nor am I really recovered yet - although I've made some great strides (and the :bowl as been invaluable in this).

I did not say anything more to the woman in question after all - but I have learned from this enounter and it is this:

It's perfectly fine to say something when someone hurts your feelings and/or steps all over you.

It may even be necessary - the pain and discomfort of saying something is not as bad as the pain of living with feeling shitted upon.

I am also learning that saying something can be done in a calm and firm way - not in a way to "destroy" or hurt or humiliate someone. I think over-the-top reactions happen because of a lifetime of swallowing it all - of putting up w/bad behavior and comments - and then exploding.

I don't want to explode - and I do want to be assertive.

It's friggin hard for women, esp. I feel - because of the whole anger issue and "moody bitch" issue - we get judged waaaaay more for our anger than men do - and I feel we often put up w/waaaay more too.

So - I don't want to be overly moody or touchy - but I do want to be assertive.

And Neen - what an amazing question:

"And here is a funny thought that just occurred to me: Is weight our BURKA?"

You have blown my mind w/that question!:yay

Because I never thought of weight this way - but it really makes sense to me.

What is a burka - it is the head to toe covering that many women in Iraq (or is it Iran:confused) must wear so as not to show their faces - or Anything - lest their "dangerous" and "unclean" sexuality infect all the virtuous men walking around there:muhaha

A burka is a symbol and artifact of repression - like fat is.

But a burka can also provide protection - I've heard some women say they feel "naked" w/o their burkas - and so can fat provide protection - from the unwanted male, assessing gaze - which goes beyond just men - it is an assessing cultural, plastic surgical gaze - that assesses us All and finds us wanting - even celebrities -

(recent Star and National Enquirer mags - or should I say "rags":muhaha - point out all the "cellulite" and "flaws" of modern celebrities).

I must confess: I often read such articles (and look at the pics) w/a sort of glee - as if to say:

see! see! even these "perfect" celebrities have cellulite!

It's sort of liberating.

But it's damaging too, and heres why:

Why must celebrities have to not only Look perfect - but actually Be perfect (that is, not only disguise whatever cellulite they might have - but also not even Have cellulite).

What the fuck is so horrible about cellulite anyway?

Christ - they act like it's a "sin".

So - being fat - you are almost making yourself invisisble in a strange way - because no one wants to look at you - you have extracted yourself from the looks/marital competition/hot babe/stakes - you have taken yourself out of that crappy game by gaining weight.

Not that you don't pay a terrible price for it - societie's condemnation and increased health risks -and deep sadness alot of times.

Knowing that you (me)are not the one who will probably be chosen to wear the all-powerful *symbol* of the wedding ring -

The "proof positive" that you are wanted - by Some Man at least!:muhaha

The thing that makes people realize that you are not alone (symbollically) - a man wants you, a man has chosen to make you his own - and you have the protection of two rather than the isolation and vulnerability of one - plus even, all the financial benefits of being married come tax time.

(This is not to say that being married is easy - mind you all, I'm talking about the symbollism of the wedding ring - which is Quite Powerful, still - and some of the tangible benefits of the married state).

Is our fat our form of a burka?

I'd have to say "yes".

Such a great question, :starsNeen:stars - thankyou So Much for asking it.

I am going to think long and hard on this - because I am amazed at how fatness and wearing a burka both conceal and protect - and also repress and are symbols for discrimination and lowered status.

-Marigold:sun

[minionSheep]

neene & marigold:

i, too, think that the burka comparison is ingenious.

for instance... i know i'm not alone in this, but in the past, whenever i would start to lose significant amounts of weight (i.e., people noticing, my clothes beginning to fit differently, my face beginning to look different), i'd panic. i didn't feel right anymore. almost like i didn't recognize my body and i was nervous with the way it felt to walk around in these "new clothes".

almost naked.

what does this say about us, though? there are plenty of lithe, beautiful, tan women who walk around baring it all, looking fly and not seeming to mind being exposed. don't they need a burka, too? or are they unencumbered by anxious thoughts of nudity in a predatious world of accusational glances and dangerous oglers?

many very outwardly beautiful women ARE smart, ARE perceptive, ARE talented. are we so different from them that we see it fit to overeat ourselves into perceived invisibility? that doesn't seem fair.

any thoughts?

minionSheep :rat

[Marigold]

:starsMinion:stars,

Well - the way I look at it is - we suffer in a way that millions of women do - and many of them are the tan, lithe lovely women who you and I and everyone sees - who *look* like they don't suffer.

Many don't - but many do.

You don't really know - do you (or I) - what they *might very well be doing* to maintain their lovely bodies.

They may be anorexic, or bulimic or a/b. They may smoke and drug to be thin - and hate themselves anyway - but you'd never know it.

It may sound odd - but a lovely body and face can also be a way for a woman to hide - after all, who is going to bother to see the real her (esp. men) - when what they see on the surface is so dazzling?

They hide too.

But again, to not be too simplistic here - I'm sure many such women also are well adjusted and well balanced -

But many are not, also.

Also - when a person is fat - it could be due to things beyond an ed - in fact, the person may well not have an ed - they may just like to eat hearty and find it difficult to lose and easy to gain.

For myself - it is some uneasy combo of genetics and my ed w/the weight - so for me, the "burka" metaphor really fits.

But again - to go even deeper - I wonder if most women do not, at some point or another, just wish they could hide from prying eyes and the "surgical gaze"?????
-Marigold:sun

[IthinkIcan]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff

Didn't read the replies because I didn't want to alter my response in any way.

What you said about people having the right to comment and the pink ribbon struck a nerve. Why? They, the world, has already started doing it to my daughter.

I'm so glad you can get angry for yourself. Instead I hide in shame as if there is something intrinsically wrong with me because I have gained weight. In fact I don't even know where I belong here on the boards, because I know where my behaviors line up versus my body. It's so confusing. But, my daughter.

We went to a bookstore/coffee shop very recently. I ordered my usual, and she ordered her usual. For some reason, however, the owner/purveyor of the drinks felt compelled to comment. When she ordered her hot cocoa sans whipped cream this lady asked/chided her, "On a diet?" No, she told her simply, but I confronted her; and I see this lady often. She sniffed, "I was only joking." Was I too sensitive? Maybe. Then my little girl went to the bathroom. She had a brown corduroy skirt on with a button-fly (she has problems with button-flys--many of them aren't forgiving, and her fine motor dexterity isn't the best because of the strokes she has had, her last residual). So, she came out and asked for help. The lady commented, "Guess it's a good thing you didn't have that whipped cream after all." :reallymad I was livid! First of all, this was a skirt from last year. She has grown two inches in the last month alone! (yes, she finally did it!) To give you a hint, she is eight and doesn't wear larger than her age. She never has. Weird quirk. It will change. :sarcasm It has to. Anyhow, this skirt is smaller that by a couple of sizes and still "fits," though I won't let her wear it for long because of the length. Obviously she does not have a weight problem. She's a dancer, a gymnast. She's strong. She's powerful.

What to do?

I decided on not saying much more to the store owner (I said plenty) . . . I, instead, was left explaining to my eight-year-old what you did here--the mindset, the craziness of the world. Yet, I pointed out to her that I am overweight, but she better never mention it or ANYONE'S weight regardless of size, and the lady said nothing to me. Instead she chose to say something to her, to someone who obviously did NOT have a problem. So this problem also exists, and is it any wonder that as teens the poor things get conflicted.

You make the best point, and, frankly, I think you have every right to feel your boundaries were violated, this is not appropriate office fodder. Neither is it up to a store owner to point out. We are well within our rights and boudaries to educate, and I say get your hands on any young person and gently educate them as best you can.

[Marigold]

:stars:hugonITIC:hugoff:stars,

I am pained to read that your little girl - who is only eight - has had strokes.

I also think that the doctor who is in your life - well, this is a doctor who probably "speaks" to the ed part of you - and therefore does not serve your best interests.

Thankyou for reading this thread - and for your validation of my boundaries w/the makeup comment. I appreciate that very much!

-Marigold:sun

[IthinkIcan]

Yeah, make-up, well :sarcasm ptooey I'd encourage you to go without it more often and we both need to learn to celebrate our curls! My make-up went missing, and I *HAD* to go without it for a while. It was quite interesting that well a) most people did NOT notice, b) those who did FELT INCLINED TO COMMENT (usually not negative--just who was this lady anyway!), c) when I went back to wearing it after a while it was just not as important, and I assure you I was HORRIFIED when I had to go without it. Oh, and I would hardly call myself a dewy faced youngin', and I'm certainly no beauty. My hair is RED and curly and

prone to frizz in the MI humidity. :ugh

[Marigold]

:starsITIC:stars,

I hope you don't mind my saying that I think red curly hair that frizzes in humidity is beautiful - andI really mean that.

In general, I Love red hair - and I love curls (true!) and I even love frizziness - because it means that when other people's hair is going limp - our's has body and looks wild! I like that.

I don't like that my poor hair has thinned so much over the years - when it used to be so thick. This makes me sad.

That makeup comment was so bizarre - and I don't know Why she said it really. But I am willing, at this point, to just let is gently drift away from me like a leave in a brook, gently drifting awaaaaay...:supergrin
-Marigold:sun

[leana]

I wonder if most women do not, at some point or another, just wish they could hide from prying eyes and the "surgical gaze"?????

Yes.

And to go further, it's quite mind racking to wonder whether that person is with you (as in a partner) just because of physical atraction, or whether they truly are atracted to ones personality.
I've often wonder that, whether in the future if I were to gain weight, if my husband would be truly ok with that (which he has stated that he would never judge me if I gained weight, and to add, he's even said, '' some times weight comes with age.. it's natural.. and ok with me, no matter what weight you put on..'') and yet, still I wonder. It's not a bombarding thought... by far I spend littl' to not 'real' thought on the subject, but there are few moments that, that thought has crossed my mind. ( When usually he ~husband~ mentions such things, is's with out help from me.. he's just ashuring me how serious he is in this relationship).

When you mentioned this;

but a lovely body and face can also be a way for a woman to hide - after all, who is going to bother to see the real her (esp. men) - when what they see on the surface is so dazzling?

it really surprised me, how simillar you hiding, and having men not notice you for the right reasons.. and how you discribed 'lovely wemon' hiding, and still not getting the 'right' responses with men either.
So.. I'm wondering.. the same shallow man, that may not 'give you the time of day,' may also giving out unwanted 'surgical gazes' to other wemon in whom he may be truly interested in.

I have to run, and cut this short.. but I have many more thoughts on this.. Also, as for being ''bitchy''... just become more asertive in your ever day-to-day life, then eventually people will be use to the 'assertive Marigold'.. and you will not be viewed as 'bitchy'... that will just be a part of who you are (the more people get use to you.. or the ''new you''..)

:love

[Marigold]

Hi :starsLeana:stars,

Please write more when/if you get the chance.

Yes...w/men, who knows, really? But I bet your husband really means what he says because alot of men say we women are much harder on ourselves than they are on us...except that implies they are also hard on us - just not as much.

I think it comes down to individual men - and so, if your husband says that, and you trust him in other areas - then I think it's safe to believe him.

No one ever usually means to put on weight - extra weight I mean - so why, really, shouldn't men (or women) understand if this happens?
-Marigold:sun

[leana]

women are much harder on ourselves than they are on us...except that implies they are also hard on us - just not as much.

I think every one has expectations of another.. especially when it's a partner. Whether we believe an expectation is ‘being hard’ on that other person, to hold such an expectation that change will come gradually or with grace, may not always be the case. Inevitably, whether we realize it or not (which I’m sure with little soul searching) one will find they hold some from of expectation from friends, family, and even lovers.

just a thought* I at times wonder whether we realize what we expect, combine the expectations (from all forms of each relationship) and in turn, ask that of ourselves.

There is a difference between envisioning the impossible, and asking for what is rightfully to expect. And I feel that is something in a relationship that we all will face at one point in time or the other. When that time comes, it’s in our best interest to analyze whether the relationship (or the person) is asking too much.

Knowing what to expect, as well as knowing what boundary's one has when pushing (or helping) the other party succeed; is only known when the relationship has developed to such an understanding.
At this point, both partners should be involved in the relationship for the correct reasons.. not looks, nor weight. But in order to grow with one another, helping each other threw the piles of shit, that life tends to hold. Your 'looks'.. and beauty is amplified to that other person. Flaws, become that persons 'special' quarks.

No one ever usually means to put on weight - extra weight I mean - so why, really, shouldn't men (or women) understand if this happens?

We (they) should understand; as I tryed to explain in the last paragraph.. you care for that person so much, that much tends to be ok.

I dated a friend of mine (few years back) whom I've remained good friends with threw out the years. He is obese (and is now, physically hurting his body due to his weight..). When we were dating.. and even now, I love (now in a different sense of the word 'love') that man, and every ounce of him. That was :hugon J :hugoff.. I don't quite know how to explain it.. but if some one mentioned his weight around me, it would even surprise me at times.. I would forget he was much bigger then I..

When I met my husband ( I was quite young..) but I remember being enchanted with his eyes.. the way he talked, the one demple in his cheek (where he had his cheek bone broken when he was no older then five, from a littl' girl that lived down the street ). That imperfection, was the cutest thing I'd ever seen.. he wasn't the 'muscle' type I was looking for, nor was he taller then I ( that to me at the time, really ment something to me.. I ''needed'' a taller guy.. ).
He doesn't make much money, and in fact, I make about eight times the amount he brings home. But, he's the home maker.. and really does all the at home stuff, I was never really made to do.. yet he loves it.

My point being.. not every one choses to judge a person due to their weight, hight or what that person may look like in general.. I do think there's got to be that spark to catch intrest.
Whether it be a demple in one cheek.. or hearing the funniest joke ever from across a resturant, and wondering who that is telling it.. if that interest is sparked.. that's what counts.

I'm sorry if I rambled.. I don't know if I went in the right direction with this post as I intended.. but.. I'll post it all the same..


:love

[minionSheep]

Leana:

Amen!!!!!!!!

But hypothetically,

What if the "spark" that the person fell in love with WAS something bodily weight related? For instance, what if the couple met in a dance troupe and fell in love, then suddenly the female gained a lot of weight over six months or whatever and dropped out of dancing... that kind of thing. Wouldn't you expect some difficulty if the initial spark of interest came from the dance, the very thing that she isn't fit to do anymore (like if it were ballet)...?

This may sound crass or abstract, but yet another scenario somewhat similar to this applies to me and I just want someone else's input. Heh. :happy

minionSheep

[leana]

:hugon minionSheep :hugoff

I believe that 'sparks' multiply. The longer I get to know my husband, the more I'm attracted to him in different aspects. Not only is the dimple in his cheek intoxicating, but also the way he looks when he's mad; the creases of folded skin crawling up his forehead, the tips of his ear’s turning red when he’s been in the sun too long… ect…ect..

I could go on with a list of things that ‘spark’, now that I’ve been with him for a while.
As for weight, or bodily related sparks, that is ok to have those as well. I'm not saying that being attracked to some one due to their body is necessarily bad. Some one may be attracked to another simply due to their womanly/manly shape. This is ok. But, whats not ok (in my mind) is some one solely maintaining a relationship based on ones physical features.
I feel relationships should be built on more substantial depth; emotional, spiritual, and the over-all depth of communication.
If a person is honestly concerned about weight gain of a partner, whether it be substantial or minimal, it is ok IF their concern is out of love.
If the weight gain of one partner affects the other and both~out of love~ communicated how they feel it has affected the relationship, as well as individually; may be a good way to clear the air (so to say..)
I feel tho', if a partner is critical of the other for gaining weight and aplies insults, or communicates the fact they are affected by the way the other has 'let go' of themselves.. then it is time to analyze whether your partner expectations are realistic or even heart felt.

:hugon minionSheep :hugoff hon, I don't have any 'real' answers for you. The best advise I can give, is to talk to your guy. If you feel weight gain has affected the relationship, then talk to him about it. Let him know how you feel it's affected the relationship, and how it's affected you personaly. Then ask him how it has affected him.
Being able to talk something threw in a relationship, allows the relationship to keep moving.

:love

[Marigold]

Thanks, :starsLeana and Minion:stars,

I appreciate these responses.

I may sound negative here (oh, what else is new:ohboy) - but I really don't think there is much chance of my morbidly obese body attracting much in the way of mates - anyway, not guys I'd want to be with.

We may try to pretend otherwise - but we live in a very visual, looks-oriented society. That's just the way it is.

I'm not saying it's good or bad - at this point. I'm just saying it is.

As for sparks - I know that w/love all kinds of things become sparks - some are physical, many go beyond the physical.

But in terms of that *initial attraction* - no one seems to want a morbidly obese mate.

I don't know that I'd want one - even - to be perfectly honest.

It goes beyond health reasons - it goes into the "ickiness" factor. People seem to find really big people "icky" when they think about being intimate w/them.

Icky - you could substitute: undesirable, unattractive, ugly, whatever....

And plus, at this weight - how could I even let someone near my body (assuming I'd find a guy I *want* to be with)???

I, myself, find my body "icky".

And that's just the way it is. I could do all the recovery work in the world - but I do not like my body.

So - while I critique the "surgical gaze" and read a book on plastic surgery that pointed out all of it's downfalls (physical, emotional, spiritual) -

I still would get some done - if only to give myself :peace of mind.

That's me - for others it's different - I hope.

For me - my body IS ugly.

And other people also think so.

I won't pretend otherwise - but also - I do wish it didn't bother me so much - having an ugly body.
(Maybe it's hard because it hurts too and is tired most of the time)
-Marigold:sun

[Pretender]

:love Marigold :love

See? I knew it!

I was in bed, as I recover from surgery, and a thought came to mind, "Hummm, P., you SHOULD swim over to the other side of the :bowl and check if lovely Marigold wrote something interestingly brilliant again." :winky

I did. Here I am. Followed my inner voice.

And - WOW. Can't believe that person said THAT to you!! :reallymad I would be like, "What the f*ck do you mean??" :reallymad

Some people should definitely drink what my :angel mom :angel used to call the "Disappearing Tea" or the "Get-a-Life Tea" :grin.

I think YOU are BRILLIANT!! (shall I keep repeating this?) :winky You think things through sooo well. I am GLAD I followed my instinct to come read your post. You're such a strong person, dear! :yay I admire you.

So how are you feeling now, hun? :confused

Please keep posting and I'll definitely swim over, hehe :supergrin.

Take care & keep :kick!!!

Love,

P.

[leana]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff

One thing I've noticed in a few of your posts, is that you refer to yourself in words that others may use..

* 'icky'
* ugly
* 'ickiness' (( by the way.. is that really a word..?))


Any way, I'm sure there's more that come to mind, and listing all of them wouldn't make the point.. so I'll just move on to it.
The more you use ~these~ words, I believe the easier it is for you to accept the fact you may ''be'' one or more of the above. Thus, accepting the fact brings negative emotional distress, thus it leads to unhealthy behavoirs in efforts to rid one of these negative feelings.

I'm going to be blunt.. CUT THESE WORDS OUT OF YOUR VOCABULARY!

DON'T use them.

I had a friend who hated the word, fuck. Every time I said it around her, she'd look at me funny and replace the work with ~ 'fudge.. or muck'. Now, I find it hard to just say 'fuck' with out thinking of her 'replacing' the word for me.
And you know... when I talk to some one now, I don't feel as if I'm a talking like a sailor.
I'm not saying I'll monitor (hhhmm.. even tho' that'd be kind of funny) all your posts and replace the words you've used that are self-dismantling. But, I think for your own benifit, the less you use these words to discribe you or your body, the less they will hold meaning...


Now, I'm not trying to say you have to love your body.. by far, many people may be ok (better word, "content") with their bodies and not ''love''
it.
I got the vibe, when reading your post, that your so sure some one would not find you, or any other obese person attractive... that you may even disregard or miss some one who may be honestly giving you a complement..

well, enough of being blunt for today.. I don't mean to keep rambling on in this post.. but just littl' things I notice, and can't help but say somethin'.... ya know..?...
take care,

:love

[MegaVictory]

Yes, I agree with Leana. Sometimes when I say words that really put me down or negative words in general that don't do anyone any good, I right away say to the universe, "Cancel that!" Also, I hate the f word. So, when people in my presence say it to me from now on, I am gonna look at them funny, and say "fudge" or "muck." I love it!!

[Marigold]

:starsPretender:stars,

Honestly? This has been a shitty day for me inside of a crappy week:sarcasm! (Within, ultimately, a stupid-ass life! I know I know....):ohboy

Your post brought a big smile to my face!! Thankyou!!!

You called me "lovely" and brilliant":touched

I feel almost like crying - except I've been doing that alot today!

I am more than honored - and I will keep posting - and :hugonthankyou:hugoff - again, so much.

:starsLeane:stars,

I know you have my best interests at heart. I also :hugonthankyou:hugoff alot!

But I cannot not do something - even if a :fishy "yells" at me and threatens to critique each of my posts!:supergrin - and believe me, if you take that on, my dear - you've got a load of work ahead of you as I tend to write loooong, pain-filled posts, as dear :starsMarissa:stars once pointed out (utilizing, quite often, the smilies)!:muhaha

Don't be offended or angry, please - because I Do know where you are coming from w/this.

I think it's more complicated than just me being all "negative" (my word, I know) and such.

I think it is all stuff I have learned - not just from my family - but from the outside world.

(And yes - I do consisder "ickiness" to be a word!)

I did, actually, have a mildly pleasant body thought today - and it was even looking in a mirror!
(They come in little ways some times - they sneak up on me when I least expect it).

Even at my weight.

I don't think many other fat people would have a hard time finding someone, also - just me. I want a great guy - a handsome guy (sorry - if that sounds shallow - but it's true) - and a sweet guy and a real bright, smart guy - and a not morbidly obese type of guy.

How can I want all that when I'm this way, I wonder?

And yet, I do.

It's so hard to live w/o love.

People may think, I fear, that this is a pity party - but I feel this in an aching way deep in my soul and heart.

Well - at least I did not overeat (or purge - which I do sometimes) today.

I'm so tired though....of so much pain.

I must repeat this, :starsLeane:stars - (because I think you are giving it little attention or weight) -

"We may try to pretend otherwise - but we live in a very visual, looks-oriented society. That's just the way it is."

Also - it's a very fat-phobic society too.

But anyway - thanks for your caring reply. I must work it out in the way I can - but you bring up good points about the "mean" words I use against me -(but, as for "fuck" - well, now, that's a word I like alot - because sometimes no other word will do)!!!!:cheesy

-Marigold:sun

[Marigold]

Hi :starsMega:stars,

We must have posted at the same time.

Well - I think in my response to Leane lies my answer or feeling about all this.

I know I'm very negative about myself - but (see my "Voices of Pain/Rage" post) - just telling myself not to be doesn't work for me.

I don't think I should just let the hating voice run amuck (as it has been doing) but curbing it is damn hard.

Maybe it is trying to tell me something beyond how ugly I am?
And If so - then what???

-Marigold:sun

[leana]

:hugon Marigold :hugoff


:reallymad my :fixitcomputer is such a piece of shit!! I typed out quite the relpy to this post... and then it-done-and-fuck'd-up, jamed the 'puter and lost it all.

because I think you are giving it little attention or weight ~ "We may try to pretend otherwise - but we live in a very visual, looks-oriented society. That's just the way it is."


You're right, I don't pay much attention to society's or the media's view on what should and should not be beautiful. That I know of, being a photographer, actress, actor, film maker does not give one a PhD on 'social perfection'.
And to add, who is to say that what is beautiful to me, would be the same for you?
The media's view of beauty also is a very fleeing ideal. In a week, a model walking down the runway may be considered beautiful, as for the next week, they will consider that model a 'coat hanger' and the exploit a model working out, building muscles. Which one and whom I'm I suppose to believe...?
To want a hansom man is not a crime, no matter what your physical condition maybe. I think every one looks for that physical spark in their future mate (which I have stated before in this post).
Yet, I do believe that what attracts us initially may not be and does not have to be that physical spark.
Also, wanting what you want, there is nothing wrong with wanting what one is not... in a sense, if a woman wants a man, of course she wants something different, then that of herself (kind of the way 'oposites attract').

I will emphasize on the beginning of that sentance you stated;

We may try to pretend otherwise

No, I pretend otherwise. No.. I don't pretend, I chose to believe other wise. I chose to believe that some one made up of more then physical properties. People are made up of so much more then some one elses standard of what they 'should be'.

I feel also, that my belief system (no perticual religious group.. just that I hold a personal relationship with God) also allows me to believe, this life is the shortest journey that we will travel.
I think with any other religion, based on an 'enternal' after life, of any form would allow one to see that (in the average life span) of eighty years, is in no comparison to what we believe eternity to be. The point being, that life really is to short to allow such negative influences to dominate that life.
I'm sorry to change this in to a spiritual journey, but in a sense, it is. I feel one can not grow permentally on the out side and sustain those changes with out doing some soul searching.

Why is it that you hold so much value to what others may think of you?
Why do you pay attention to societie's standard of what beauty may be?

(now, these questions may not pertain to you.. if not, don't worry about answering..)

As for the negative words.. I can understand you wanting to keep using them..(I'm not angry at all..) yet, I will challenge you ..

What purpose do they serve?
How do they make you feel when you use them?
Instead of using negative words about your physical appearance, why not just use those 'icky' words when discribing what you feel??


(( and as for the word 'fuck'.. yes, that is why my friend made alternatives, 'cause I loved to use the word way to often.))
:love

[Marigold]

:starsLeane:stars,

I appreciate your response but - I don't know if you understand:

Maybe I Do put too much emphasis on looks - but I am also morbidly obese - and I get judged far more frequently and harshly on how I look than does a person of normal weight.

Also - it' not just me chosing to buy into society's standards - I think we are All very much affected by those standards - particularly people w/eds.
-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

I found that when I learned to start putting down the stick with which I beat myself for being overweight, it made it much easier to do the real work of recovery, which made it easier to start losing weight & become more healthy, which added to my self-esteem, which made me less eager to pick the stick back up & beat myself for being overweight.

In other words, it's a circular thing, this focus on your body that you have. If the constant message you play in your head is "I'm morbidly obese & that is horrible for the following reasons .....", it tends to keep you focused on the negative & mired in the ed.

No one is saying you should jump in front of the mirror & say, "My God, I love my body just as it is & don't have a problem with it anymore!" It's more about changing what your mind focuses on, becuz doing that will bring about its own change in other places.

"Where the mind goes, the behind follows". If you're focused on your being obese & how much you hate that, it's going to keep you in a place that isn't that recovery-oriented. For me, working on the issues first & then beginning a food plan that had a focus & goal of being healthier (rather than the old mantra of "perfect body") led to a much better place & success I never had when I was entrenched in "I'm so fucking fat & it drags me down & I'm judged & I judge myself for it".

[Marigold]

Hi :starsKensington:stars,

Well - I do try! I can tell you that much....

It hasn't been at all easy to be turning forty-one and being obese and thinning hair and other stuff.

Sometimes I think I forget, also, that if my life were alot more fulfilling, some of this looks stuff would abate.

But even thinking that takes me right back to my body - it's fatigue keeps me from doing alot of stuff.

I'm sure it might sound like justification - but I've been dealing w/fatigue for a long time. Meds never helped a damn.

So - obesity + fatigue + painful life unhappiness = an ed.

Alot of times I Do appreciate my body - just today after a shower in a steamy bathroom w/just natural light - I saw myself in the mirror - and felt fine w/what I saw.

I get very easily knocked off track, though -

and remarks like the one that started this thread tend to do that to me.

Honestly - I cannot remember a time in my life when I was not judged for how I look.

And I hate hearing my brothers talk about my weight and my eating and ed almost as if they "owned" them and knew perfectly well what I should do (eat less, exercise more - possibly attend twelve step program).

I am tired of outside judgements - and sure, I've got plenty of my own - but I wasn't born with them.

I'm doing my art again - and keeping in touch w/that shuts off ALL the negative voices - be they inside or outside of me - at least for a while.

Doing my art also helps me feel like my life has a purpose to it.

So maybe it's not about looks - but as soon as I start to really feel that - someone makes some dumb remark.

I Try not to let it matter - but if you hear stuff enough -

It starts to always hurt.

And let's face it - a fat person is an easy target.

And fat phobia is pretty irrational when you really think about it.

So - it's alot to contend with.

Thank god I have my art. That's something, at least.

Thanks for your reply (and Leane's and everyone else's here too - I feel really appreciative of them).
-Marigold:sun

[Jennnifer]

:stars marigold :stars

I just had a thought. You know I am morbidly obese too... and I've got the frizzy hair *and* I've got pimples too... yeah, real nice lol.

But for the most part, I don't feel like I'm being judged. I don't feel like I'm an easy target. And really, I don't think anyone's either staring at me or thinking bad things about me.

The few times I have become crippled with the *fear* that people might be staring... well, it was me doing that to myself. I had other stuff going on, which translated into bad body thoughts (sort of like what is discussed in WWSHTB).

So... what do you think is the difference?

I know you said you hear comments... but do you think there is a chance that it is just that: a dumb comment... and not a *judgement* of your weight?

I mean, people say stupid shit all the time. It doesn't mean that the comments go farther than just being a stupid comment.

And here's one thought.... do you think that maybe you are actually intimidating to your co-workers.. or maybe even they feel you are aloof or something like that and so that when they try to make chit-chat, stupid shit comes out? That's just a fleeting thought I had.

:digdeep

:challenge
Maybe the judgements that you got as a child are things that still needs to be resolved???

Also, sometimes I get the feeling that you are allowing your weight to prevent you from reaching your full potential.

I think you are meant to do something more than what you're allowing yourself to do.

:bullet Mentor a child
:bullet Start an art program at an old folk's home
:bullet Adopt a child
:bullet be a "foster parent" to a rescued dog (do you like animals)?

Your life is only going to be fulfilling if you fill it up with things you are passionate about.

:stars Marigold :stars What are you passionate about?

[Kensington]

obesity + fatigue + painful life unhappiness = an ed.

Actually, I see the math differently:

Self-hatred
+
focusing on what everyone (may or may not) think & say about me
+
focus on how much I hate my body
=
staying in the ed, which then gives you obesity, fatigue & other physical problems.

I do know that you are trying, you certainly demonstrate an ability & willingness to think thru things that are hard to think about. What I also see is you seem to be stuck on how much impact you let your physical size & its symptoms have on you, as well as what you perceive a size-ist society doing to you.

Yes, people often judge obese people. Yes, sometimes they may stare or make remarks. But you cannot change that. All you can be responsible for is how you treat yourself & how you choose to take care of (or not take care of) yourself. The remarks you run thru your own head are much more dangerous than any real ones you might hear from outsiders.

You give so much power to outside forces you can't control when the real power to recover is inside you. I don't say that lightly, I lived it for freaking years myself. You have the power inside you to do what you want, but you have to be willing to alter your thinking a great deal & stop giving your power away to others.

[MegaVictory]

I agree, if others make remarks about us, or THINK stuff about us, well, it's THEIR problem, not ours. We are on this earth to overcome obstacles. Everyone has some. Be the best we can be, despite them. Handicapped people all the time, (and in a sense, we are handicapped, too) have to be extra strong inside themselves, to function and sell themselves to the world as "normal." Crying in the mire will get us all nowhere.

[Marigold]

:starsJennnifer:stars - you've already talked about my "vibe" in questioning whether or not I've somehow brought on the makeup comment from that woman. Now you wonder if I am "aloof".
I want to say to you, once and for all, that I am not the one at fault for that woman's comment - or for any other shitty way I have been or may be treated.

:starsKensington:stars - I am not trying to stay in my ed by questioning (and even railing against) factors I've already mentioned. I agree that often I do give my power away - or feel guilty when I should not. It's all stuff to work on.

:starsMegaVictory:stars - I am not "crying in the mire". I agree w/your fundamental point that we all have to be strong - but I also feel it's damn hard to be strong alot of times - and that's what this thread is about. This is not "crying in the mire", as you put it.

Guys - you've made your points. I thank you for those things you have written that I feel applies to me.

I don't want to keep debating all this - as though the causes of my (or anybody else's) ed is either inside me - or outside in the world. It's Both.

-Marigold:sun

[Jennnifer]

No, :gimmehug Marigold :gimmehug I am *not* going to let this go because what you did by saying this: Jennnifer - you've already talked about my "vibe" in questioning whether or not I've somehow brought on the makeup comment from that woman. Now you wonder if I am "aloof".
I want to say to you, once and for all, that I am not the one at fault for that woman's comment - or for any other shitty way I have been or may be treated. is twisted something I said into something I did not say.

So what I see here is you lashing out at something that very obviously touched a nerve.

Why don't you go to the feelings list and work through this because maybe, just maybe, you are on the verge of figuring this out. That would represent freedom from whatever it is that is holding you back.

And you *deserve* that!

:gimmehug :gimmehug :gimmehug :gimmehug

[Kensington]

I don't want to keep debating all this - as though the causes of my (or anybody else's) ed is either inside me - or outside in the world. It's Both.

I totally agree with that statement. My ed came from things within myself & from things that happened to me.

But those are the causes.

The cure comes totally from within you & has nothing to do with what others say or do or think.

I think that's what some of your replies are talking about.

[Marigold]

:starsJennnifer:stars,

If I quoted your exact comments back to me (about my "vibe" and about my being "aloof") - that would not convince you that I did not, in fact, "twist" your words around.

So....I am going to let this go.

I also don't think that saying, once and for all, that I am not responsible for other people's crappy behavior toward me is "lashing out" at you either.

I do wish you well, totally:gimmehug

-Marigold:sun

[Marigold]

Kensington - yes, the cure. But the cure does not happen in a vacuum, right?

We are still part of the world.

I understand where you are coming from on all this, I think.

When I get stressed out - that's when other people's dumb comments bother me the most.

But they make those comments because they have been taught to judge women - like we all have.

-Marigold:sun

[Jennnifer]

Don't walk away from it, Marigold.

We're here for you. Whatever it is inside of you is deep and searing.

We'll hold your hand... it is safe here.

I encourage you one more time to try and work through this.

[Marigold]

Jennnifer,

It Is time to let it go.

You and I are not "on the same page", I feel - (to use a very tired -but true)! - saying.

Maybe we can come back to this - at another time when we have Both detached from it more.

-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

The cure does not happen in a vacuum, you said.

What is the rest of that thought?

I mean really answer it, becuz to me it sounds like it's the beginning of an excuse. I don't mean that to sound attacking, I truly hope you won't take it that way. It just sounds like the rest of that sentence goes back in a circle to how it's partially not your fault if you don't recover becuz your recovery won't happen in a vacuum.

No one's recovery happens in a vacuum but people still recover!!

Can you tell us what the rest of that sentence is for you?

To be fair, when I was at my sickest, the rest of that sentence for me personally would have been "& since it's so fucking hard & people can stare & the world is often unfair & I've tried & tried to lose weight & be happy & have a healthy relationship with food but I can't do it under perfect conditions, I just fucking give up".

I passed years of my life with that & just got unhappier & heavier & less healthy both emotionally & physically. I don't know anyone else who's had or has coe/bed & is not in recovery that hasn't gone thru the same pattern.

Nope, recovery does not happen in a vacuum & really neither does anything else that I can think of. So you make your recovery into what you need it to be, despite anything that gets in your way. What other choice is there?

[Marigold]

Kesington -

I have nothing more to comment on regarding that statement. I'm sorry if it sounds like an excuse to you.


-Marigold:sun

[leana]

:gumby

* just poping back in for a min..

But they make those comments because they have been taught to judge women - like we all have

These people have a condition... is called 'shit for brains'. and their mama's raised 'm in a barn.

In no way are you, or will you ever be responsible for ignorant comments.

I think it's important to let you know I validate your pain. And I also know what it's like to recieve comments (thus, leading to self hatred, and then to an ed..).
And I understand that having such comments made multiple times, it's hard to 'not' listen. And hard to ignore our 'body obsesed society'.
But, I believe, what others have asked of you, is to look past these comments, and for a moment, put a 'blinder' on towards the 'social' demands..

:love

[Marigold]

I feel like these responses are now drawing me into waters I do not want to be in.

In a way I feel annoyed - because I started what I think is a good thread - and lots have contributed and given interesting replies.

Now i feel it is descending into an argument/debate on whether or not I am making excuses - and so forth.

Or whether or not I can see past the "dumb" comments other people make.

I wish it were that simple. I wish it were just some "dumb" people - and not the world we live in - the air we breathe.

So:
Kesington - I do feel attacked. I don't feel you really want to know what I think/feel here - I feel you are on the lookout to blame me for making excuses - I'm sorry about this - but this is how I feel when I read your words.

Jennnifer - I do feel you have put the blame on me - by inquiring about my "vibes" that I may give out - and wondering if I am aloof (or if my coworkers see me this way). I'm not saying you Meant to do this - but yes, this is how I feel.

Leana - I feel you are simplying these issues too much - at least for me. I am sorry but this is how I truly feel.

I once felt like I was taking on the entire :bowl - and I do Not want to repeat history - okay? So I will Have to let it go at this.

-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

All I can do here is offer you my honest words that I was not trying to attack you, nor do I ask someone to answer a question if I have no interest in hearing the answer.

I was trying to help you. If you see my words simply as an attack, then there is nothing I can do about that.

[Marigold]

Kensington,

What is it you don't understand about my "vacuum" remark?

When I've already said that it's living in the external world - with all it's judgements - that makes recovery so hard.

This is not to mean recovery is not possible. How could you see this as an "exuse". To call it such - well, that Does make me feel attacked - because I've thought long and hard about this stuff - and everyday I fight my ed.

Some days I am stronger - some I'm weaker.

But Never do I just give up and say: oh well.

-Marigold:sun

[MegaVictory]

Correct me if I am wrong, what Kensington and Jennifer are trying to do is make YOU responsible for your recovery, not the world outside, where you keep giving your power away to. They want you to feel triumphant, that you can overcome this, not that you can't because of the shitty world we live in, and that you will never get better. They want you to transcend this negativity. Others see your worth, why can't you?

[Jennnifer]

I'm done after this because I can't make you see what I feel I clearly wrote, but I want to give it one more try to explain....(but I still think I'm wasting my time here as you have already made up your mind what you feel you read...)...

You did NOT deserve negative comments by your co-workers. You did not bring them on to yourself in any way. What I was trying to say was if they are intimidated by you, or if they think you might be aloof or something, then that is THEIR problem because you are not those things, and in fact, you are a very warm, compassionate person.

What happened was: they made a stupid comment.

The :challenge is :

Why are you buying into it?

And I think you used my post as a vehicle to sort of have an argument with your own ED voices.

I never said those things that upset you so much.

You said them.

I didn't even think it. In fact, I was surprised you read into my comments the way you did because it was so far off base what I was conveying.


:stars Megavictory :stars Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

But we can't make :stars Marigold :stars see what she isn't ready to see.

I'm done with this post. I have no hard feelings. I am very sure what I wrote is not what Marigold said I wrote. I am not triggered by it. I feel very comfortable that what Marigold is struggling with has nothing to do with me. I'm clear on it.

[Marigold]

If we all didn't live in such an *eating disordered world* I would take these comments more to heart:

"because I can't make you see"

"But we can't make Marigold see what she isn't ready to see."

It's not,however, about whether I am "aloof" - or might seem so to others - or whether it's my "vibe" or my "aura".

I think the whole world is crazy about food, about women's bodies and about exploiting both.

I think many if not most people suffering from eds are merely part of a *continuum* of women (especially) who are suffering acutely from a world buying into this whole "ed mentality".

It is everywhere. And so, like the air, we have absorbed it deeply into ourselves - so much so that it almost seems "normal" to us.

I've always thought that bulimia, COE - even anorexia - were just more *intense* (and potentially lethal) expressions of what most everyone seems to suffer from today - in one form or another.

The comment my co-worker said to me: "better put some (makeup) on" - is part of an ed-mindset - *regardless* of whether or not the person who said it to me is bingeing, purging, starving herself....or just dieting and making sure she doesn't ever ever gain an once.

My essential point - the reason I started this thread - is to show that finding recovery in our crazy, ed-mindset world is very very difficult for all of us - because of the world we live in - and the people around us - are filled w/their own ed-mindsets - even if they are not engaging directly in the most extreme of ed behaviors.

So - if we only focus, in obsessive detail - on our *own lives* and our *own problems* - we only see a very small part of the picture. It's an important, vital part - but it isn't enough.

I feel stronger for knowing this about the world -not weaker. I feel more responsible about my recovery - and not as though to point out this means I am utilizing "excuses".

I'm reading a great book called "Starving for Salvation" by Michelle Mary Lewlica - (it's not primarily about anorexia alone - though the title might lead you to think so).

The subtitle is: "The Spiritual Dimensions of Eating Problems among American Girls and Women".

By "spiritual" she does not mean "religious" per se.

Here's a quote from the book:

"We cannot stigmatize anorexia and bulimia as individual pathologies of diseases, at the same time that we approve, even praise, the behavior of those women who exercise and diet to attain the culturally prescribed body idea. The tendency to separate the social obsession with thinness from anorexia and bulimia allows the latter to be treated as individual problems and isolated disaeases, disconnected from popular culture and patriarchal society" (quoted from feminist therapist Catrina Brown)

Additionally, from the author:

"This view recognizes a continuum of eating problems, from the more extreme incidences of anorexia and bulimia to the more common but related problems of compulsive eating, chronic dieting, and body-discontent. The aim is not to collapse the differences between anorexia and dieting, for example, but rather to see these differences as a matter or degree rather than kind. This illuminates the continuities between "disordered" eating and the "normal" food patterns of many girls and women today (those based on some degree of restriction, dissatisfaction, obsession, and/or loss of control). (Italics are the author's emphasis, not mine).

This book helps me see what I've always felt - that no matter how the individual suffers w/an ed - it occurs within the framework of a dominant and very sick culture of fat-phobia, food obsession and the "worship" of the cult of the thin celebrity. We put externals - having a nice home to impress everyone with, say - over internals - peace within that home and loving support.

My co-worker's comment to me about makeup is part of (and not apart from) the sickness this culture suffers from.

I think that we with eds are on the front lines of a "war" - but everyone is in it - whether we want to be or not - or whether we even know it or not.

It is a "war" on the normal, natural female form (especially the aging female form) - but it goes even deeper.

At heart we are a very ill and ailing society for what we worship beyond thinness and restriction re: food and body.

We value competition, material accumulation and patriarchal values of dominance and supremacy.

Because of this, life for many has a very empty quality to it - we see others around us as they seek to fill their (our) emptiness w/"stuff" (including food - and/or restriction and fulfilling the thin ideal) - and we know people get very admired by this world for having alot of stuff and being thin and looking good.

We, as a society - go in for externals over internal values.


The fact is - I do focuse deeply on my own feelings and failings and inner thoughts of cruelty and self-hatred toward myself in an attempt to get at the heart of what keeps me in ed behavior.

Yet, based upon what I've read and what I've experienced thus far w/my ed - to Only do so (focus on the inner "pathologies") - is to risk seeing the forest for the trees.


I am seeing where my inner sickness reflects the external sickness of the world we live in. And I see this for all who have eds - not only me.

For me, what it's really about is (to quote a favorite movie of mine - "American Beauty") - being able to "look closer" or deeper (at the world we live in - to take a critical and challenging eye of our culture and families and friends around us - and see how all of that contributes to and keeps our ed going).

And so - with :peace I thank All of the contributers to this thread.

-Marigold:sun

[MrFishy]

M,

"The comment my co-worker said to me: "better put some (makeup) on" - is part of an ed-mindset - *regardless* of whether or not the person who said it to me is bingeing, purging, starving herself....or just dieting and making sure she doesn't ever ever gain an once."

Ive read this statement along with this post ten times....

I keep comming to the same exact conclusion...

Huh? :winky

Sorry....but no matter how i twist it....it doesnt even come close to fitting.

There is just so much I want to add to this post, but I think I will add just one thought that I feel is EXTREMELY important......

We can point as many fingers as we want to to the outside sources contributing to our issues in life because they do play a role.....

The problem lies when we begin to use them as excuses.......and there is such a fine line for this to occur, that people dont usually have the ability to be able to distinguish when they have crossed that line.

Ill just leave this post with that VERY important point.

Good Luck!

[Marigold]

Mr. Fishy,

My ed-mindset has been one of elevating how my body/face looks to an unhealthy degree.

But I do not see myself as being some sort of strange anomaly - I think many women, maybe most, do this.

Or have had to fight against doing this.

I'm not saying that all women have eds - just that it is part of an ed-mindset to put being thin - and/or being pretty (the makeup) in front of anything else.

Including, even, being polite to others. That comment was impolite, at best - and yet I know the woman is not, basically, mean at all.

I'm Not looking for any excuse for my ed - if anything I've blamed myself - and never really took a critical look at the culture, at large, where my ed has flourished like a flower in a hothouse.

Marya Hornbacher has written a great book called "Wasted" - it's about her recovery from severe anorexia/bulimia.

She writes:

"The question is really not if eating disorders are "neurotic" and indicate a glitch in the mind - even I would have a hard time justifying, rationally, the practice of starving oneself to death or feasting only to toss back the feast -

but rather why; why this glitch, what flipped this switch, why so many of us?

Why so easy a choice, this? Why now? Some toxin in the air? Some freak of nature that has turned women against thier own bodies with a virulence unmatched in history, all of a sudden, with no cause?

The individual does not exist outside of society. There are reasons why this is happening, and they do not lie in the mind alone."

So - it's not either/or in my mind.

It's not either the culture is to blame or I am to blame - or even about blame.

When I started this thread I was in considerable distress over the comment - now that has abated some.

But what that comment has shown to me (as if I needing showing) is that a woman can never forget, never...

that she is always being judged on how she looks.

If she tries to forget (I carelessly and blythly went to work that day w/"frizzy" hair and no makeup) -

she will likely be reminding of her straying - and told:

"better put on some makeup".

It's not one, isolated comment though. It's a comment that comes out of the very air we all breathe.

Mr. Fishy

I appreciate the feedback.

I love this website - I love being able to participate on it - I love reading and responding to and starting posts.

But I cannot do violence to myself by finally "admitting" that I am looking for an excuse for my ed behavior.

I don't need an excuse. The behavior is very stong in and of itself.

I don't need any excuse to feel badly about myself either.

Maybe I should just shrug off these comments - you know, water off a duck's back -

But what I find useful to do (once I get over my feelings of anger and pain) is to see how they fit -

ever so neatly and completely -

into an ed mindset that whispers, ever so insidiously:

"what you look like is more important than who you are".

-Marigold:sun

[ksara]

I was going to stay out of this. I really was. Since you first started this post, I have watched my dad die from cancer, he was first diagnosed the beginning of July, had surgery, chemotherapy, sent back to a hospice where I met up with him after being estranged for six years. I held his hand through his pains, hugged him when they were over, cried when he introduced me to the nurses as his "beautiful daughter", laughed and said "he must be losing his vision". Now I ask myself why, WHY was that so important to me, that my dad acknowledged my "prettiness" for probably the first time in twenty-some years?

Damn it Marigold, I have accomplished great things. I am a wonderful mother, a fairly good wife and have been married for over twenty years now, I grow beautiful gardens, keep a nice home, and work hard at my job. But what seems to matter, what it all comes down to, is my appearance.

I am disappointed in myself and I'm not going to accept it, I'm going to fight it. What you call the ed voice could actually be ourselves listening with an ed ear.

[MrFishy]

M,

I want to TRY and cut it down to its TRUE basics, because what we tend to do sometimes is make things complicated to serve our purposes......


"better put on some makeup"

Thats the statement that started this.


This came from a person who "I know the woman is not, basically, mean at all."

Which lead to you feeling..."I'm not the only one who hates how I look"

Thats the key. The feeling is already there. So....why not blame that feeling. even if its at THAT moment, on the comment.

Stand ten people in a lineup.....not ALL will agree that the statement was "inpolite". Not all will even say they gave one rats ass about the statement.

THATS what I mean by using her statement as "permission". I mean shit....you cant change the world or even HER......so....fuck it.

BUT....

You CAN change how you react to the world around you.

Look Marigold....striaght up.

I have ALWAYS offered you different ways to think. Ways that I from the outside think will eventually help you to make some HUGE steps.

Im not here to win tho. Cant do it. Dont want to.

Im here for YOU to win.

Amazing huh? :winky

Do with my words what you want. If they dont help you.....fine.

They will help others.

I just see this issue as a big one for you.....and its OK if you hate me for thinking about you enuff to bring it up and be straight up about it.....cause I dont need you to be my friend......I just need you to be healed. :winky

Good Luck!

[Marigold]

:starsKsara:stars,

It's so damn hard - and none of it is simple.

My story is similar to yours - but my "estrangement" from my dad was active - we fought all the time!

He was crazy. But I loved him/love him - deeply.

My mom too. And she was crazy, kind of, in her own way.

They say you don't chose your parents - but even /w crazy parents (and I'm not saying yours were crazy!) we can still learn alot.

Fact is - every daughter - in some secret part of her soul and heart - wants to hear from her Dad that he thinks she, his daughter, is *beautiful*.

So - your Dad's comment strikes me as deeply caring. And no doubt he meant your inner beauty in addition to your external beauty.

You might want to :digdeep - to see why you felt you had to "invalidate" his words by saying:

"he must be losing his vision"

Ksara - Those are the ed-mindset voices coming out.

Now - I am not trying to contradict myself - because beauty - the physical kind - is So So overrated in this world -

And I know - I Know - on a deep gut intuitive level (and from my readings) that this worlds' over-emphasis on looks leads to eds.

I know it does. It's not an excuse or a rationale.

But - maybe even Because of this - when a Dad wants to show his daughter how much he loves her - he tells her she is beautiful.

One part of this is good. Children (and we are always are parent's children - no matter how old we get) need to hear how beloved they are - and need to feel secure - as much as possible - about how they look.

But if a parent comments too much on looks and beauty to his daughter - he does damage to her - by telling her - how she looks is very important to him - that how she looks is very important to the world...

And this elevates beauty to dangerous heights in the little girl's mind.

But w/your Dad - (and if I'm wrong, tell me) - the feeling I got was he wanted to praise you - and give you love and show love - by telling Everyone in the room -

Look at my beautiful daughter. She is beautiful inside and outside - and I am damn proud of her.

Interestingly - my father - who had praised my weight loss (before he died I had lost a huge amount of weight - over a period of about three years) - criticized me.

I remember in the hospital, shortly before he died - I turned to get something for him - and he criticized my body - my hips - said I was getting fat again.

This devastated me. I was already in agony to lose him - and then he commented negatively on how I looked.

Even though I knew he was very sick at that point and that he was reacting more out of that than to hurt me -

It did hurt. Quite deeply. I'm even thinking now it might have been the subtle but very real re-start of my COE.

So - it's a fine line, isn't it? I know that my Dad did damage to me growing up by being so critical - but I also know that the world around us is also ready to step in and be critical in the same way:

to judge how we look. To spit out negativity at us. And we are somehow meant to just take it in and be nice about it and not get upset - lest we be accused of making "excuses" about ourselves to "justify" our weight and COE.



We want our fathers to love us - and call us beautiful - but we want our Dads to not feel as though they have to "police" how we look, lest we stray and put on weight and "embarrass" everyone.

(It's something- when you gain alot of weight - you don't just "embarrass" yourself - your whole family feels you are somehow "shaming" them - or can feel this way).

It's a crazy world.

But I still think your Dad meant love when he mentioned his "beautiful" daughter.

The ed-part of it is that you have internalized a "not beautiful" judgement about yourself.


Where did that come from?

(If I'm wrong about your situation w/your Dad - let me know).
-Marigold:sun

[Marigold]

Mr. Fishy

You said:

"Which lead to you feeling..."I'm not the only one who hates how I look"

Thats the key. The feeling is already there. So....why not blame that feeling. even if its at THAT moment, on the comment."

I am doing this.

But - I also know - I"m Not the only one who hates how I look!:muhaha

Morbidly Obese? There's a shitload of people out there who hate how I look:ummm

Anyway - you probably Don't believe this - but I'm not trying to "win" either.

I Know you don't believe that. You probably just see me as an argumentative in denial sort.

All I can say is - I love to explore all this in deph - and I need to.

But I don't hate you - not in the least.

I think that you have extended a hand of welcome to me - and that means alot to me.

If we can't agree here - then agreeing to disagree is the only option.

But - I think you are not understanding that I do not contradict questioning that thought.

The thought that: everyone hates how I look!

I think, though, I'm trying to also put it in a greater framework.

Somehow - looks have become *overwhelmingly* important to all the world.

Is the world :wacky?

Is it not just me and my ed-mindset?

Yes.
Yes to both questions.

Mr. Fishy

Do not Hate me either for my complexities.

I LOVE this website.

I am deeply greateful to you and SFishy - for it and for allowing me to participate.

So - if you think I am stubborn and in denial - do so -

I do not want to fight.

I want to explore feelings/thoughts/options

At the heart of it -

I can't change the whole $$##%!! world - can I?

But - I can look deeper.

Someday - I'm going to have to bite the bullet and work on not hating how I look.

All I'm really saying about that is:

It's damn hard to do when the world is poking it's nosey nose in - evaluating me - and telling me:

"better put on some makeup"

and

"better lose some weight - now!!"

That's all.

:peace to you Mr. Fishy

-Marigold:sun

[MrFishy]

M,

I have a question for you that JUMPED at me after reading your replys here.....

It sounds to ME like your hearing your DAD in the world around you.

This I ALSO think is key.

What do YOU think?

Good Luck!

[ksara]

Marigold,

I've told you before how much your words mean to me, how much your posts have inspired me. You have so much wisdom and such an eloquent way of expressing the obvious thought you put into your responses. Thank you, you put a lot of what I was feeling into perspective (and the significant insight of why did I say, "he must be losing his vision".)

I wish your father hadn't said unkind words to you. That was awful. I can tell you that my dad verbally abused me my entire life, that nothing I did was ever good enough, I was never enough. I can tell also tell you that his joy at seeing me during his final days and his kind words made up for all the pain, all the bad. I wish everyone could have that when someone they love but have fought with dies.

I also wish I help you learn to love yourself. Marigold, I have been every single weight from A to B--and I am only five foot two! I am nearly forty years old and I can tell you that there hasn't been a day, no matter what my weight was, that I was happy with my body. I offer this up to you as a message that all people, thin, average, obese are immune from hating our bodies. If you lost all of the weight that you think is preventing you from happiness, it is quite possible that self acceptance would still elude you. I only say this because that is what happened to me, I thought becoming THIN would make me be like all the women I had envied throughout the years. The truth was that I felt better physically but my issues and problems had not shrunk at all. On the contrary, they became even more difficult to challenge because I no longer had the padded excuses.

Anyway, I'm not lecturing here or even giving you advice because I do not feel qualified; if fact I feel kind of like a hypocrite most of the time when I'm trying to help someone. I just wanted to share another viewpoint, another story. And I wish I could see you, I know I would find great beauty. Your soul is so enchanting, surely your face and body reflects the light.

Love Ksara

[ksara]

I meant "are NOT immune" (to hating their bodies)

;-)

[Kensington]

The point that a lot of people seem to be making in variously worded ways is this: the woman was rude to say something to you that indicated you weren't attractive without makeup & needed some.

But what you do with the feelings that comment evokes is entirely up to you.

It doesn't matter if this woman has an ed or not, if she's a bitch or not, if she's got three heads or not. She made a comment & you have the choice of whether to empower that comment or not.

No, it's not easy to learn how to keep from handing your power over to people. I struggled with this immensely, particularly in the beginning of therapy & when I first joined the bowl. I hated the saying, "You can't change the other person but you can change how you react to them". Yet it's true!

The world does not exist in a vacuum & neither does anyone's recovery. So what everyone here must do is find a way to empower themselves so that they still move thru recovery, learn boundaries & strengthen themselves regardless of what's going on around them.

That is not to say you are powerless in what goes on around you. I had to change relationships & other outward things in order to get to a much healthier place. But I also had to work my ass off to change things inwardly. If I continued to hold it foremost in my head that the world is unfair, overweight people get discriminated against & a lot of advertisements & entertainment contain women who are thin, I would be so freaking bogged down in the despair of that message that I would have no ability or energy to move forward.

What I've seen on this post is people coming back time & again to try to get you to see that we are NOT jumping down your throat, nor do we need long quotes from books to show us that the world can be unfair. We are trying our damndest to help you, Marigold.

We get the points you are making about beauty & thinness being rewarded in society. Ok, then what? If you focus on that, you are focusing on the negative & how powerless you feel & that goes nowhere fast. People here are trying to help you see your own power. Trying to help you get to a place where you can start working on NOT hating how you look. Do I mean, as I stated before, you should jump in front of a mirror & say "I'm gorgeous!"? Nope.

But you CAN reach a place where you are not fixated on hatred for your thighs, anger at your bum, a need to seek out disapproval in the eyes of every passing stranger. When the time & energy invested in all of that hatred & suspicion & mourning is freed up for more positive things, you start to move forward.

[Jennnifer]

There's definitely a difference between LOVING your body and ACCEPTING your body. If you try and just say you love it, when you know you don't.. then that's just lying to yourself when you know it. But ACCEPTING your body that you don't love is different. You can tell yourself that you aren't happy with where you are but you accept the reality of that IS where you are.

And let me tell you some of my own personal experiences.....

Whenever I have taken personally a stupid comment said by some person, it is usually because I had already said it my head before the person said it.

I already believed it to be true, and the fact that the person said it reinforced to myself that the bad comment must have been true since two of us commented on it.

That's buying into the comment. And the only reason to buy into the comment is because I needed something to beat myself up with.

It doesn't matter that society pokes fun at obese people. Hell, watch Jay Leno on any give night and he's making fun of fat people. but I look at Jay Leno as a very sad person who is very obviously eating-disordered.

Do I take the comments personally? No. If I did, that would be giving my power to someone else.

The thing is, marigold, I once WAS thin and pretty according to socitey's standards. But, I hated going to clubs because men are disgusting pigs if they hang out at clubs... I was called fat when I was thin... I thought my body was disgusting... I had sales people be rude to me because of this that and the other...

So beauty and thinness aren't really rewarded in society because people are *always* going to find issues with you. That's just human nature in regards to jealousy, perception and people projecting their issues on to others. That doesn't change along with your weight.

The problems you complain about with society

will always exist no matter what your body looks like.

The real body that is idealized by society is an air-brushed, touched up picture in a magazine... a body type that not only doesnt' exist, but has to be created.

Some people are always going to hate how you look. If you are thinner than the next person, they'll look at you and say in their minds or behind your back: "bitch".

And when I was thin, I had people telling me I "looked tired", that I "looked pregnant"... that I "should put make up on" (as told to me by one of my principles)... or asked me "what's wrong with your hair today?" One guy looked at me and said, "you're fat." And I *wasn't fat*. Some people are just assholes.

So if you can accept that the grass in society is NOT greener if you are thin, then you can remove that block and look at what's left.

And what's left is that you bought into that stupid comment and you let it bother you
because on some level you already believed it.

And that's how you gave your power away.

And if you really did some :digdeep .. probably with a T because I think this is so buried and so hurtful to you... you just might find out that your father's comments were absolutely devestating to you. And you have carried that bag of destruction with you all of these years.

So when that girl made her stupid comment to you, what it did was take you right out of the present and made you emotionally feel as you did in the past whenever your dad criticized you.

And when you hear something over and over as a child, you *believe* it is true.

The only way you're going to get past this is to move the society thing to the side and open that bag of destruction and discard whatever it is that is in there.

And YOU are the only one who can do that.

:gimmehug Marigold :gimmehug I know you know we are on your side.

[MegaVictory]

Righto, now just imagine, that when the lady made THAT comment from hell, you looked up at her and said, "Yeah, give me a break. Before I put my face on, I need my morning coffee first!!!" And that something in the air is automatically neutralized, the day gets off to a better start, and one's own power is intact right where it should be, in one's own hands. Instead you lost it, (probably due to a nerve it hit), and she ended up on top, even though unconsciously on both party's parts. But I too have suffered from my dad's criticism. He would never eat my cooking. Either it was not good enough for him, or I wasn't clean enough, or whatever the reason, it was his problem, but I took it to mean there was something wrong with me. So, is it a coincidence now, or not, that for a very long time after he died, I had food issues, could not eat with people, could not eat other's food, whatever, all because of an ignorant way of my father's that wasn't meant maliciously, but just an example of his backward, negative ways.

[Marigold]

:stars:fishy's:stars,

I'm kerflummoxed right now. My brain is tired - but never am I too tired to give back lengthy replies (well, strictly speaking, that's not true, really).

Let me just say: I do not want all this to turn argumentative - and I really mean that. I am going to do all I can to remain civil to all who reply. If I cannot agree I will agree to disagree.

I don't mind to keep on exploring all this - but mutual respect (me to you - you to me) must be observed lest we all spin out of control.

So - I think one strength I have is to value complexity - and eds are, if nothing else, hellishly complex.

There is the inner stuff (for me: my family, my history, my personal pain and challenges) and the outer stuff (the world we live in, fat hatred, beauty police, other people's stuff that they often project onto others).

So - I'd like to respond to a few excellent points that have been made here:

Mr. Fishy said:

"It sounds to ME like your hearing your DAD in the world around you.

This I ALSO think is key.

What do YOU think?"

Yes, I agree. My Dad's relentless criticism has made me *highly sensitive* - even hyper sensitive to criticism - even perceived criticism. That doesn't mean I don't sometimes dish it out msyelf (I'm not perfect, I know) - but compassion also flows through me too. I know what it is like to be very badly hurt by the ones you love the most.

Also - Mr. F. - just because I admit this - it is in no way to be construed that I am letting society (or that lady's comment) off the, eh, hook (sorry - I know there's alot of :fishy around here - I won't mention the "hook" again!:muhaha)

It's not either/or for me.

Ksara said (among many fine things):

"If you lost all of the weight that you think is preventing you from happiness, it is quite possible that self acceptance would still elude you."

Ksara - I actually know this from firsthand experience. I lost a ton of weight - and still had alot of the same problems - and some new ones (like people watching me to see when I would start putting the weight Back on!:ohboy)
And watching what I ate:ugh

Hey - and don't feel like a "hypocrite" either - for offering help. You have so much valuable insight in your response to me.

Also - thank you for this:

"And I wish I could see you, I know I would find great beauty. Your soul is so enchanting, surely your face and body reflects the light."

Wow - that's a beautiful sentiment. The gracious thing is to say: thankyou! And I do! (I can tell you have this inner beauty too).

Kensington said:

"The world does not exist in a vacuum & neither does anyone's recovery. So what everyone here must do is find a way to empower themselves so that they still move thru recovery, learn boundaries & strengthen themselves regardless of what's going on around them.

That is not to say you are powerless in what goes on around you."

These are words of power and wisdom - and if you think I'm fighting you on this - you're perceiving what I have been saying in a way I don't intend.

I agree w/you one hundred percent on this - we have to find ways to empower ourselves. That's one reason I post here.
It's very challenging - when you factor in a person's past pain, present challenges and so forth - as well as the world we live in.

All this stuff contributes to (and often strengthens) an ed. It takes incredible inner strength to fight it.

Excuses? No. I believe in the fight.

Sometimes I weaken. Alot of times. I come here and I post. I also am in therapy.

As for the books I read - I love to share them w/the :bowl - whomever wants to can read those lengthy quotes I put in some of my responses - and others are free to ignore them. It's fine either way.

When I write quotes down in a post - it strengthens what I read - and makes it even more insightful for me. Plus I like to share this stuff.

Jennnifer said:

"And when I was thin, I had people telling me I "looked tired", that I "looked pregnant"... that I "should put make up on" (as told to me by one of my principles)... or asked me "what's wrong with your hair today?" One guy looked at me and said, "you're fat." And I *wasn't fat*. Some people are just assholes."

But all of this is what I'm talking about. And yes, thin people suffer in an ed-mindset, ed-infilitrated society too. Why do you think Jay Leno is so popular?

So - whether or not you realize it...I think we are making similar points here - maybe we are coming at it from different angles, though. That's all.

Body acceptance is just as hard as loving your body - maybe harder. Because body acceptance means: I accept you, my body, even though you hurt me (and I have hurt you - and I still hurt you in my weakness w/the ed). I accept you body - even thouhg I am so profoundly deeply disappointed in you (and in me for not taking adequate care of you - and for actively hurting you).

Jenn - body acceptance is no easy thing - not that you were saying it was.
But acceptance does take some of the pressure off - maybe even alot of pressure off - when I can do this.
I go back and forth on it alot.

My poor body hurts alot. It carries my sadness I think - and I say this not expecting anyone to say: oh poor Marigold! I say this because it's damn true.

MegaVictory said:

"Instead you lost it, (probably due to a nerve it hit), and she ended up on top, even though unconsciously on both party's parts"

Mega - I don't think I actually lost it when she said that comment about my needing to wear makeup. I did not blow up at her in anger - though I could have. I did say a bit forcefully that I did not want to put on any makeup - but I woulnd't call that having some sort of meltdown or breakdown w/her.

I do like your witty comeback about the coffee - I've said things like that before too. It Does help neutralize stuff.

But - the point is - in this thread it is very valuable (I really truly and deeply feel) to explore her comment - for it's deeper implications.

(As for your Dad - yes, I can see how his comments and behavior would have made food a difficult thing for you).

------------------------------------------------------------

To explore all these issues - maybe many feel like: oh who cares?

That's fine - some don't want to go off on all these tangeants - they may see it as unnecessary.

I personally feel better when I take a comment like what was said to me about: "better put on some (makeup) and I don't just blow it off - or only work on empowering myself or do any of that stuff in isolation.

I look into why women, especially, get so judged on how they look. And then I see how this is factored in to my having an ed. I look at how society has gotten increasingly shallow - and how pressure is being put on girls of younger and younger ages.

I look at all the pressure women, esp. aging women, have to still look young.

When you think about it - her comment: "better put some (makeup) on" - can almost be seen as a good-natured "warning".

For all I know, she wanted to *help* me! By telling me how much *better* I look w/makeup. Which is true - in a certain sense I do indeed look "better" w/some makeup.

But women need to feel free not to wear makeup too. For me this occurs when I challenge and disset the pressures to wear it.

I don't know if I can change a damn thing *externally* (probably not).

But inside it helps me greatly to talk about all this.


So - I've said enough for now. If you still think I am making excuses or not seeing the light - well, I can't say more...
:peace :peace :peace :peace :peace :peace :peace :peace :peace

And thanks to all of the insightful responders to this thread.
I am honored by your responses.
And:

You've all made me think deeper on stuff - have I made anyone here think too? Just a bit?:winky

-Marigold:sun

[Jennnifer]

Yes, we are essentially saying the same thing about society, but you missed my point.

It doesn't matter that the girl made a stupid comment.

It doesn't matter that the girl is basically a nice person.

It doesn't matter that by commenting she may have bought into society's twisted thoughts.

It doesn't matter that it seems society rewards thinness.

It doesn't matter that society seems to make obese people easy targets.

It doesn't matter that some women feel make up is a requirement of society.

It doesn't matter that women get judged by their looks.

It doesnt' matter that society pushes diets as the norm and that diets cause EDs.

None of that matters in this discussion. In your life. In your quest to overcome your ED.

The only thing that matters is HOW you allowed yourself to react to the comment.

You've created this circle that includes all your aggravations about society and how they treat women.

But by creating that circlular thought pattern, you don't give yourself any space to break out of that pattern.

That circle is NOT the problem. Nothing in that circle is the problem.

The problem is that you allowed yourself to be aggravated and personally insulted by that stupid comment.

And so you need to throw away that circle, and deal with the real problem.

Society is unfair. SO WHAT! Big deal. Always was, always will be.

Until you can push aside that circle and deal with YOU and how you allow youself to react to situations, you're never going to get past the circle.

And recovery is well past that circle.

Are you able to trust us enough to accept that we see something here that you can't see yet?

Hang in there, :hugon Marigold :hugoff!

[SFishy]

Jennifer, I was going to reply to this thread, but I could not have said it any better than you did... I'll let your post stand on it's own (as it should!)

Jennnifer said: Yes, we are essentially saying the same thing about society, but you missed my point.

It doesn't matter that the girl made a stupid comment.

It doesn't matter that the girl is basically a nice person.

It doesn't matter that by commenting she may have bought into society's twisted thoughts.

It doesn't matter that it seems society rewards thinness.

It doesn't matter that society seems to make obese people easy targets.

It doesn't matter that some women feel make up is a requirement of society.

It doesn't matter that women get judged by their looks.

It doesnt' matter that society pushes diets as the norm and that diets cause EDs.

None of that matters in this discussion. In your life. In your quest to overcome your ED.

The only thing that matters is HOW you allowed yourself to react to the comment.

You've created this circle that includes all your aggravations about society and how they treat women.

But by creating that circlular thought pattern, you don't give yourself any space to break out of that pattern.

That circle is NOT the problem. Nothing in that circle is the problem.

The problem is that you allowed yourself to be aggravated and personally insulted by that stupid comment.

And so you need to throw away that circle, and deal with the real problem.

Society is unfair. SO WHAT! Big deal. Always was, always will be.

Until you can push aside that circle and deal with YOU and how you allow youself to react to situations, you're never going to get past the circle.

And recovery is well past that circle.

Are you able to trust us enough to accept that we see something here that you can't see yet?

Hang in there, :hugon Marigold :hugoff!

[MegaVictory]

Oh I did not mean that you lost it and got angry in front of the woman. I think on the outside, you were cool, real cool. I meant, look at the hell it has put you through the last couple days? In that way, she "won," was on top, whatever you want to call it. And I bet she hasn't one clue that this is so.

[Marigold]

:stars:fishy's:stars....

I think, at this point, the thing I wish to do here, in place of endless debating, is agree to disagree w/those :fishy's who feel differently than me about what we've been discussing.

:peace
-Marigold

[MrFishy]

M,

I am going to close this post so we can agree to disagree. I honestly dont think it will go any further than that.

The thing to think about is....by "us" disagreeing with you...."we" lose nothing.

I can only hope that that is the same for you.

Think about that statement for a second.....because winning an argument isnt always winning.



Good Luck!

[SFishy]

I just wanted to add one thought I think MrFishy missed...

The goal here should never be to "win" the "debate" or "argument" -- it's supposed to be SUPPORT, and support is often going to come in challenging one's thinking. We're not talking about something generic like politics, but your LIFE. We're not talking about society in general, but YOU.

If everyone always agreed with everyone in these forums, or even just agreed to disagree, no one would challenge their own thinking and ultimately, recover.

Take care of YOU