why is it that prety much only democrats post here

[Vicks]

So, after another post, I have become quite curious why is it that pretty much only democrats post over here?

I have my own thinking and mine you what I say is only FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND MY OWN FEELINGS AND DEFFNITELY ARE GENERALIZATIONS, but here is why I feel democrates post over here more:

:bullet Lack of caring so much about what other people think. I mean, most peopel I know who are democrates dont' really care so much what people think about them.

:bullet PC, while at one time I think was much more of a "democrate" ideal, I think has turned the tide, where it now is viewed as "limiting of speach" hence I think again people don't really care what they say.

:bullet Current issues in the News. Right now, there is a lot out there about the current administration, every where you turn, hence lots of questions and speculation occurring, so maybe simply the course of "discussion in news" is geared more towards bashing the current governement.

Again, those are just my GENERAL THOUGHTS, NOONOE HAS TO AGREE. Just how I feel.

But It does disturbe me that this board is fairly onesided. I grew up in Indiana twenty miles from the, home of Dan Quayle, and was very conservative most of my life, I still am in certain ways. But I would love to see a broader range of discussion here.

Vicks

[Marigold]

:starsVicks:stars,

Those are interesting points you bring up - but -
the fact is, neither you (nor me nor anyone here) really knows if it's more *Democrats* posting here.

It may just seem that people of a more liberal mindset are posting here.

Actually, I think people, in general, tend to be more conservative than liberal - so I share your surprise at all the more "liberal" types of viewpoints that come across here quite often.

But often enough, more "conservative" viewpoints come across too.
Often, even, several :fishy's will hold more liberal views on some things and more conservative views on other things.

I like to think of it in terms of how I feel about any given issue - not how I may/may not vote.
-Marigold:sun

[Vicks]

Marigold you are absolutely right, I should have asked "why aren't there more consevative beleifs promoted on this forum?"

I don't consider myself a democrat, more of a Libertarianne. In fact, I have refused to register as anything, which sucks, because in NJ to vote in primaries, you have to be reigstered as something.

None the less, I am very curious as to why more conservative idiologies aren't represented?

vicks

[shortstop]

What was this forum like when the Clinton/Lewinsky thing happened? I guess I'm wondering if conservatives aren't posting because there aren't many positive things in the news for conservatives to talk about. (?) I also agree with you, Vicks, that Liberals tend to not care about what people think as much.

[Shauna]

:hugonShannon:hugoff

I don't think this part of the board existed back then. I believe this part is only a year or two old. I can imagine that :sfishy would have had to set up a whole new board to deal with all of those opinions. :sarcasm

[KTLIZ]

This is a generalization, but...

This board has, for the most part, a young-adult teens-to-thirties membership. People in that age bracket TEND to be more liberal. This is not to say that there aren't younger conservatives or older liberals, nor that there aren't members of the boards who DON'T fit that age category, but it might explain the general trend.

Just a thought.

:love
KT

[Catherose]

I agree with Klitz- I actually posted the same thing in response to the other thread related to this topic. Vicks, I don't neccessarily think that democrats care less about what they say. I definitely think that's a common stereotype- that liberals are crazy and outspoken and protest more. I go to a really liberal university with one conservative magazine on campus. Conservative students are SUCH a minority here, and in their magazine they definitely don't care what they say or who they offend. I know it's just one example, but I think that either party will be outspoken when they need to be. If you're a silenced minority you're likely to take an extreme stance and perhaps be outspoken about it since you have nothing to lose.

Maybe more liberal people started posting here when the board was first created, and we've kind of taken over? Maybe more conservative members of SF feel uncomfortable or disinterested in this forum because their beliefs aren't represented. Given the typical traits of people with eating disorders (ie-low self esteem) maybe people with different viewpoints from the mainstream here just don't feel it's worth it to get themselves heard. I hope that's not the answer. :sad

[Vicks]

Catherinerose - I agree with you on the I don't neccessarily think that democrats care less about what they say

In reality I agree with this. When I was growing up in Indiana conservative idieology was everywhere. I had extremely empassioned debates with my freinds (we were all conservative) I have seen plenty of conservatives get riled up and agited and use their voice.

I hope that more conservative viewpoints start showing up here, simply because a variety of opinions and outlooks is always something that is beneficial to everyone. It is why diversity is so highly regarded.

Vicks

[gone]

Well...

I'm conservative, but I don't post all that much this side of the :bowl.

To be honest, it's not that popular to be a Republican right now. I could just imagine posting about something and getting a deluge of anti-war, anti-bush messages. It's not worth the trouble for me. Why post someplace where ya know your opinions aren't really welcome?

I go to a liberal uni and run into the same problems. Yes, it seems like liberal people say they are open to all views, but voice a conservative idea in class, and people will rip you apart.

[SavingSelf]

I consider myself to be a Libertarian but probably lean more conservative.

I agree with Greenangel:

"I could just imagine posting about something and getting a deluge of anti-war, anti-bush messages. It's not worth the trouble for me. Why post someplace where ya know your opinions aren't really welcome?"

I used to post during the early days of our involvement in Iraq but got tired of being in an environment that I felt was mostly anti-administration rather than thoughtful discussion. I decided to keep my political opinions to areas where I can have thoughtful political conversation. Conservative are around, but some of us don't want to fight the fight in here.

Another example, I'm involved in a runners forum that has a nutrition board. The board is deluged with posts that are very clear signs of disordered eating and many from people who are looking for validation of their disorder eating. I try to encourage those people to get the heck out of a runner's forum (which is filled with enough wackos and their own disorder eating that they promote) and come over to Something-fishy where they will surrounded by others with similar struggles. On the political front, I try to keep my opinions to forums that are designed for rounded political discussion and use Something-fishy for eating disordered support. I suppose what brings me back to the Current Events forum is partially curiousity and an interest to keep informed of a good representation of anti-administration discussion to keep me rounded. Karley

[Vicks]

But why did this forum become one where liberal ideas seam more prevalant than conservative ideas?

Why hasn't anyone posted issues dealing with conservative issues and ideals, and why havne't people jumped abord those types of threads?

Vicks

[jennifer_dawn]

Greenangel said is sooooooooooo clearly...:idea
To be honest, it's not that popular to be a Republican right now. I could just imagine posting about something and getting a deluge of anti-war, anti-bush messages. It's not worth the trouble for me. Why post someplace where ya know your opinions aren't really welcome?

i totally agree. i don't usually feel that my opinions are welcome..and worth the trouble. no one is ever gonna agree on politics, so why drive it into the group and get in an arguement about it...i dunno thats where i stand

[Feak]

I am pretty left wing. Vegetarian, feminist, bisexual, activist... I have strong beliefs and opinions, but I do try to be respectful here.
I don't totally understand the ins and outs of American politics, in the :uk here we have a different system, but I know that if I was in the USA I'd be a Democrat and disagree with Republicans...

I have a problem with more Republican centered debates, cause a lot of time I find it very offensive. For example, not liking homosexuality, things that tend to be very right wing. I know that it's a big generalisation about right wingers I have, I don't understand USA politics like I said. But I think those kind of more right wing topics are avoided because of the potential to upset people. Like, I'm all for free speach, but when people here post anti-gay stuff (not now, but in the past) I get upset. It's nasty and upsets people, and gets closed. I would see it being hard to have a more right wing debate, without upsetting people.

I know that I'm being extremist here, but I find a lot of right wing policies very upsetting. Like if I posted supporting the British National Party (racist party) here I would expect it to get closed.

[PetuniaPetunia]

EDs are most prevalent in young women. Most young women are democrats. Hence, the board is left-leaning and feminist.

[ribbon]

shortstop said: What was this forum like when the Clinton/Lewinsky thing happened?


:trigger mentions an act that Clinton didn't consider to be sex

I wasn't here at the time, but if I was I would have been bitching about that too. I was :reallymad that Clinton lied, and also not thrilled with the visual in my mind of Monica Lewinsky under his desk giving him a blow job while he was on the phone doing the country's business. Actually, I really didn't want to think about that visual at all :muhaha

[Vicks]

Who determined tho that Republican/Conservative opinions aren't welcome?


I think "peautnia" gave a good concrete example of perhaps why more liberals post and that being that:

Young women tend to be more liberal

But then again, I see this and think "but most people with Eating Disorders still come from conservative backgrounds, families who are well off than not, and even more religious" So, to me, I honeslty, think that there would be more "conservative" fishies here than "liberal" fishes.

I think think that there are plenty of conservative issues that I side with republicans on, one of those being "States rights" I am a big "states rights advocate" I don't beleive that the federal government always knows whats best"

Good conversation, glad to see some of the "Conservatives" useing their voice. Makes things a little bit more intersting. It would be nice if someone started some threads about conservative issues.

Vicks

[ribbon]

Vicks said: But then again, I see this and think "but most people with Eating Disorders still come from conservative backgrounds, families who are well off than not, and even more religious"

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Vicks]

Again that last comment I made, is based simply upon old stereotypes old old stereotypes, please don't hold it over my head, it was just a generalization. Generalizations sometimes ocur and I apologize for making it. I am not super up to date on my statistics as far as who developes an Eating Disorder and who does'nt, so until I update my statistical facts I shouldn't make generalizations and I apologize.

I still however would like to see some more conservative viewpoints reflected here.

Please please, do not hold one statment made by me over my head for the rest of my time here at SF.

vicks

[Anonymous_Member009]

Vicks,
you're okay. no one is going to hold an opinion statement over your head. your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses. opinions aren't always based on facts....so we tend to hold our own opinions until we discover new facts that help us in formation/reformation. but its not wrong.

as far as why maybe more conservatives don't post here, have you ever heard the saying, "Don't throw your pearls at swine....?"

its just a piece of wisdom i learned a long time ago. i find this environment less than friendly when someone has a conservative "narrow minded" opinion.

[Vicks]

HOw can it become more open? How can it become more inclusive?

Vicks

[gone]

I don't know if this thread is starting to go around in circles- i suspect it might be :winky- but I'll throw in my two cents.

I don't want to be in the way in this forum. I feel like if I posted something conservative, it wouldn't be a good venue for it.

There's this theory we talked about in one of my classes, called the Spiral of Silence theory. Basically, it starts off with people seeing that their views aren't expressed in a particular venue. They decide they should be quiet, too, because if other people aren't talking, why should they? And more and more people don't share their views, because they see that their views aren't really welcome. It's a kind of neat idea, really... something that comes up often in survey analysis. You can have a "silent majority"- a large number of people who think something, but don't say it.

I know for me, I read all the posts in here, and most of them seem to be, well, liberal. And I feel funny posting my ideas. For the record, my views are a mix of conservative and liberal. If I was forced to label it, I'd say probably Republican and moderate conservative. So I believe in the armed forces and our current foreign policy, and woman's rights, but I'm against federal interference with education, abortion, etc.

How to make it more inclusive? Hmm... Maybe one place all of us could start is less name calling, like calling Bush a jackass, etc. When I read namecalling, that tells me that it's not a thread I want to get mixed up in, because when things resort to that, logic is effectively thrown out the window.

Just my ideas :winky

[Vicks]

Greenangle - I agree with what you said, I think the "silent majority" idea is perhaps what has happened. Perhaps, the liberals, just started talking first and have never turned back.

I can tell you that one thing that by seeing such onesided views on this board I have started to feel that "the only activists in most places are liberals, because I never see any conservatives promoting and/or talking about their agendas" and/or "issues" And that worries me a lot, because honestly? The peopel with money, tend to be more conservative, I would be deceiving myself if I didn't admit that. I want people who are "conservative to care and want to make this country better"

I actually am bombarded day in and day out with politics, as I work for a Zionist organization, and one thing I have learned is that noones views are gospel, most often, I am at odds wiht my co-workers, but oh well, we still get along and respect each other even when I have said some not so nice things about certain politicians.

I would like to think more conservatives would start posting issues important to them. I would like to see someone say "hey I like Bush I think he is doing a good job because he has done X X and X" or "I think Kerry is a JackAss because...." or "I wish the federal government would get out of peoples personal lives because....."

Greenangle - I do think that you hit it on the nose, a "silent majority" perhaps, this thread will allow someone to start some more conservative type posts, not even dealing with specific individuals, but even with conservative issues.

vicks

[shortstop]

I find it interesting and kind of disturbing that conservatives aren't posting because it's not a popular pov right now.
Who cares?
You should voice your opinion because it's yours not because the majority will validate it.

[Catherose]

Shortstop- what you say is true, except that we all just post here for fun, just because we are interested and enjoy these discussions. And if everyone's going to shut you down, band together, and make you feel stupid (even unintentionally), it's not so fun, not so worth it.

Vicks- I really don't think that conservatives are generally richer- it's another generalization. Some of the poorest staes are the most conservative. In two thousand, the poorest states were (according to the US Census Bureau website) Louisiana, New Mexico, Arkansas, and Texas. All except New Mexico voted Republican in that year's election. I think it's just another popular stereotype. It makes sense that wealthy people would have some conservative values- they are less likely to be affected by social welfare programs, for example. But I don't think the stereotype consistently holds true.

Greenangel- I love what you had to say. Thank you, especially for your last paragraph.

[Vicks]

I agree with what you said Catherine Rose, many southern states are Conservative, not by economics but more by "social issues".

I suppose my main purpose for starting this thread was to get people with different points of view posting topics from their point of views.

I truly don't thnk everyone here at SF is "liberal" but from this board it seams that way. I would like that to change.

Vicks

[SavingSelf]

I wasn't going to post again but since I'm one of the silent majority, I'm going to go out on a limb too. I'm not going to get caught on in a debate on the Something-Fishy website about politics though. I'll take my political debates to an environment that I think is more rounded.

I said this before and I'll say it again about my choices not to post as a conservative -- I use Something-Fishy for eating disorder support, this isn't the place for me to become involved in political discussions. I don't avoid posting my political opinions here simply because being a conservative isn't necessarily popular right now, I don't post polictical opinions because there are a lot of better places for me to do so. I find a balance from the liberal slant from SF, that's why I come back and read this forum. Maybe there are mainly liberal posts in the SF Current Events forum because it's safe and comforting to do so, who knows.

I'm glad I had the opportunity to speak up as a conservative because there are a lot of us out there, but I still won't use SF to post my political feelings or become involved in debates. It's just not interesting to me. Karley

[rosysunset]

Maybe political beliefs would be an interesting subject for a future poll on the website? :grin

I'm definitely more conservative, but frankly dislike those labels. I'm used to getting shot down in more liberal circles (I'm an environmentalist) so I stay away from places where people can quote me without really listening to what I'm saying and/or take me out of context. Plus, my beliefs don't line up with Republican or whatever and the natural tendency is to assume a whole belief system about someone based on one thing they say. Plus, I can talk politics anywhere, but the other forums are support pretty unique to this site.

Just my two cents...

Rosy :flower

[Camellia]

I really appreciate these discussions :happy

I think its really important for everyone, liberal, conservative, moderate, or other, to remember that just because we hold certain beliefs to be true for ourselves, that doesn't mean they are "right" (or "wrong").

Its very easy to criticize others and/or their beliefs because they are not like our own.... But in the big scheme of things, that does not mean that we are right and they are wrong, or vice versa.

This topic came up in one of my classes last semester about tolerance and cultural competency.... the majority of my class was quite liberal (as am I), and in general I think that liberals feel very strongly about promoting equality and tolerance.... and yet, as my professor pointed out, that doesn't mean that that is necessary "right" or the best way for everyone.... It was a hard concept for most of us to swallow - that certain liberal values aren't necessarily "correct" but just different. The irony of all this is, of course, that liberals tend to want to promote that idea anyway - that people are all different but still deserve equal rights and tolerance - but for some reason, I do think its hard to then step back and say the same about ourselves, that our values aren't necessarily right or the best way either.

It is not fair for liberals, or conservatives, or anyone else to push their values on others or to reject or criticize others who hold different (not better or worse) opinions and values. That is something that we all need to step back and reflect on and accept because it does impact our interactions with others. No, it is not OK for people who are liberal here to be saying negative and hurtful things about conservatives.... It takes a hell of a lot of self-reflection and courage to look inside ourselves and recognize that what right do we have to believe that we are "right" - to me, its just like saying that there is only one "right" way to heal, or only one "right" religion to ascribe to....

True tolerance means recognizing and accepting and valuing everyone's opinions, similar or different that our/your own, as being important and meaningful and valid and "correct" - there is no right or wrong way - differences make the world go 'round.

:love
Cam

PS - One caveat - I say all of this in terms of opinions and beliefs, but I don't necessarily feel the same about "actions" - I do not believe that it is "correct" or "right" or "ok" to discriminate against a group of people just because of a similarity that defines them - i.e., it was not OK for Hitler to murder millions of people because they were of different religious and ethnic background then what he believed was "right" I hope that makes sense :shy

[Marigold]

I wonder why it really matters how many democrats/liberals as opposed to republicans/conseravtives post here?

It's not like this venue is off limits unless you are liberal.

I do find that many voices here seem more liberal - which, far as I can see, is a refreshing change (for me, anyway).

I am not a young, female college student (studies are showing that more and more middle-aged women are succumbing to eds) - and I know that around me, in the environment I live in and work in - it's much more conservative than not.

In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that America, in general, tends to be a more conservative country than a liberal one.

Things are changing, albeit slowly.

I also think many people, be they dems or re's are just tired of Bush and his ways.

The thing is - conservatives certainly do have just as much right to voice their opinions as others.

Many people will find *certain* conservative views such as "homosexuality is bad" to be offensive - and they do have the right to say so and to say why they feel this way.

But not all conservatives feel this way about homosexuality - or anything else.

And not all liberals agree on everything either.

I think it's interesting and more fun (and more challenging) to have discussions/debates on these issues from all sides.

I do think this thread sort of implies (at least to me - and if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, Vicks) that somehow the conservative voices are being "silenced" here.

I do not think this is true at all. Everyone has a right to say what's on their minds.

And, in fact, on this very forum I've read many a conservative viewpoint.
-Marigold:sun

[Vicks]

No one I think is "purposely slilencing anyone" I just was curious as to "why most of the viewpoints here are liberal" when society in general is full a variety of views.

Vicks

[IthinkIcan]

I do dip my fin in over here, and I am known to be conservative, albeit oddly so. I'm known to say I "wish" I could be more liberal, and I'm not playing. I feel it's easier to be of a liberal mindset and live in this world.

As someone who holds many of these beliefs and who has been around fishy since ninety-six I realize, however, that my views are ones quickly squashed as not being "supportive." When that is done, when certain beliefs are not allowed or are utterly berated, then I think it tramples not only the idea of free speech, which it isn't here (it's Amy and Tony's world) and makes for an environment that starts to raise up certain ideals. These, of course, start to become more verbalized, the represented and representative. I'm certain other conservative-minded fishies exist, but many would tread water carefully when it comes to political issues. Truth be known, if they were as outspoken right as many here are outspoken left, this particular forum wouldn't be able to stay open and there would be un-necessary suspensions, etc. I choose to stop by here, reply at times, but I'm careful; and I remember that my main reason here, in general, is to support my recovery. I've had to choose to overlook that that means not being myself in some ways. It's too bad really. I feel much could be learned from a conservative from myself. Anyone who knows me will tell you I'm as lacking in judgment as someone comes, but I still have beliefs. I have mine; you have yours. Ha; I used to see that as the liberal way and used to hold more traditionally liberal views. Live and let live.

Now, think about it, with many of the present things in the news, the supposed "right-winger" is going to have problems. Gay marriage, partial birth abortion and the recent ruling, and this is just two subjects that are repeaters.

I don't feel this forum is representative of young women as a whole (the demographic) or even young, ED women; I feel it may even be a stretch to call it an accurate demographic of the young women here at SF.

Just my two cents.

:love
:train

[Marigold]

IThinkICan,

Amy does not allow "abortion talk" here which is smart - it's too contentious an issue.

Your views on other topics should be aired.

Listen, I'm a liberal - pretty much across the board but *not* in every area -

And I've been challenged and so forth here many a time. Just take a look at some of the replies to my "Michael Moore" post.

I really think that people have to be honest if they feel afraid of airing views here - liberal, conservative and everything in between.

Yes, it can be scary. Yes, you can get responses you don't like.
But no one need get *personally* rude w/anyone who posts.

If so, then people say so, and things get settled.

IThinkICan: if you feel you have views to share that can help/teach others - and you want to air them - then please do so.

If I don't like them or agree with them - I will say so if I feel like responding. Hopefully, I will also say *why* I feel/think as I do.

Sometimes (often, I guess) topics can get pretty heated.
No one is totally neutral here in their views; that's my observation.

Sometimes the best thing to do is just "agree to disagree" if no consensus can be reached by :fishy's w/differing views.

Re: the news: frankly, I think mainstream news is mostly of a conservative bent - that is how *I* see it.
Therefore, I often feel my views may be unwelcome.

But I've got a right to them same as you and every other :fishy does - and no one is trying to take that away from you here.
But - If someone tries to, it's okay to assert your rights (ie: I have a right to feel/think about this issue as I do).
If it gets too bad, a post may be closed.

All and all, this seems pretty fair to me.
As I've said, it's the coming together of all different types of viewpoints that makes this an interesting forum.

Another interesting thing to note: I have read that, contrary to what many very right-wing politicians think, the majority of the USA is in the middle in terms of political stances on many topics.

-Marigold:sun

[IthinkIcan]

I would tend to agree that many people tend to fall more toward the middle.

Heh, I'm still irked a bit at the idea of censorship, so it won't do me much good to revisit this idea too much. Regardless of what the topic is, I feel we should be able to discuss ANYthing here. Again, that is why I call it Amy and Tony's world. I have to choose to have limited problems with that or leave. Many people have left through the years, particularly those of a more conservative bent with regard to the mentioned issue. Interestingly, these would not necessarily be considered traditionally "conservative" people, so this, again, supports the idea that many people fall toward a middle ground. Then, too, there have been the traditionally conservative people who have fallen by the wayside, hurt by this very topic. Why? It does NOT go without mention. Rather, it is not allowed to be mentioned negatively. Interestingly, I've not said where I fall on this issue :winky I will say I don't want to see it abolished. That makes me less than accepted by right to life groups.

As for homosexual, lesbian, bisexuality issues, this often DOES digress into name-calling quickly around here. If one mentions that they may not be "for" "gay" marriage the word "homophobic" comes up quickly. Just take a look at the posts here. "Close-minded" is a "nicer" but still derogatory term. There have been times people have been asked to justify their feelings and beliefs outside the Bible, since that inspires religious debate, which is not allowed. That leaves a Bible-believing person grasping at straws and saying things that are perhaps even more "out there." I AM a Christian. I do not like to have to pretend I am something else. I believe in the Bible. I have, however, been trained in apologetics, debate, philosophy, and am being trained in "worldview." This is to say I'm learning to be quite comfortable "defending" my beliefs outside of my traditional belief system. I'm learning how to define myself within the world structure and be comfortable, period. Yeh, this makes little sense. But, basically speaking, on and off for the past ten years, I've taken classes where the Bible has NOT been allowed as a defense or a reason for ANYthing. NOT allowed. I had to define myself OUTSIDE of that. Pretty cool.

Then, too, comes the issues of Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, and the constant digs made at "Republicans," immediately aligning them with "right-wingers (grrrrr)" and name-calling. It makes for a hostile environment. Frankly, I'm uncertain as to why the mods allow it. It says on the opening page that this is to be a place where we RESPECTFULLY discuss politics or some such things. Name-calling, digging at a party and aligning them with the extreme, all these things make for a place that is easier to be silent (especially when seeing the lack of support from the top down to stop these things). I have even seen mods make questionable replies. It wouldn't be allowed anywhere else on fishy. Yet, the attitude carries over to the other boards, clearly.

So, yes, I will read; I will reply when I can. Maybe I will be braver. But, I HAVE been hurt in the :bowl before. Politics and religion are the types of issues to bring out a lot of people's claws. They go to the very heart of who we are. You take a swipe at someone's politics; you take a swipe at them. So, try not to. Tiptoe? No. But, remember to be respectful. Remember, it hurts. And, remember why we are here. First and foremost this is a recovery site. Hey, I HAVE been reminded. :winky There ARE political sites :love

[tryingtobeme]

I have noticed a lot of Republican-bashing. I think a lot of people are open here about their sexual orientation. I have seen some passionate arguments for someone's viewpoints about these issues, and religion. But I don't think anyone else's "forceful" opinion would change mine. However, I have been known to be persuaded to look at things differently when presented with rational, sound arguments or fully explained opinions. I don't remember seeing posts closed because the opinion wasn't popular, but I haven't seen all the posts I guess.

I just thought I'd try this.

I am a registered independent who voted for Bush in the last election, and who has not made up her mind who to vote for in this election.

I am a Christian who believes that "marriage" is a biblical institution, and which is meant to be between a man and a woman. I do not have a problem with legal "civil unions" between the same or opposite sex.

I would state my opinion on abortion but I don't know if it is allowed based on the previous posts.

So, does anyone hate me now? Anyone think I'm ignorant?

My guess would be no. No one, not ONE :fishy has to agree with me, but I'm sure that my right to have and express my opinion will be respected here.

I also respect that Amy and Tony created and fund this site, and therefore have every right to moderate it as they see fit. Yes, I can leave if I am not comfortable with the rules. I might not like the rules, but by participating here I am agreeing to abide by them.

I don't understand what the big problem is. Maybe its me. Maybe I just don't get it. (Wouldn't be the first time!)

:love to everyone TTBM

[the_dragonfly]

See, Here's the thing:
I don't understand a damn thing about American Politics. I don't understand why it is that technically Bush should have or should not have been president (cept for the obvious issues of late).

In Australia, we have only a few parties:
Liberal - More for the rich. They like to increase the cost of education, trying to ensure only rich kids get to go to uni and run Australia. (Over simplifying I realise!)
John Howard has a thing for Bush, and likes to follow him... a lot...

Labour - Working class people. Although, this occaisionally switches when they need more votes

Democrats - augh. Supposed to be "Keeping the bastards honest" (their political slogan) but they have more cracks than the pavement out the front of my house!

Greens - I like the greens. They are, as their name suggests, for the environment. They'll never win. Maybe never even come close, but, from what I've seen they have a few morals!

Now, you get the the lesser parties, but no less likely to cause destruction, most notably One Nation of Pauline Hanson fame (Refugees OUT, Aborigines get to damn much, and a lot of made up numbers, which no one could account for. This party has seen Pauline Hanson jailed for electoral fraud, freed, but still guilty, and the party seems to be slowly disintegrating. Thank Goodness).

So, my long winded point is, I don't understand the difference between a democrat and a republican (here, a republican is someone who wants us to become a republic, but the US is already one, so WTF?????)

I'm undecided about the death penalty, I don't agree with Gun Ownership for personal saftey (how safe is it if it's locked away as it's supposed to be? What kind of Home intruder will wait while you unlock the gun, load it???). I am pro choice re. abortion. I'm all for gays getting married, and adopting children, and doing whatever the hell they want, as if they were straight. I'm anti sending our troops off at the drop of a hat, and I'm anti "Education for the Rich".
I'm anti cosmetic testing on Animals, and I'm in two minds about medical testing on animals (something about a rat with an ear on it's back terrifies the hell out of me!)
I don't know what this would make me in the US, probably a very confused voter!

I've read a number of the posts here, about politics, and while some times I say "hmmm, not so sure about it" There's nothing I've read which I haven't heard worse in RL.

I guess, for those of us who don't understand your politics, it doesn't look so bad... it's easy to take things to heart when it's something you believe in though, and I think that's where the issue is.

[battgyrll]

I've been thinking about this post lately and the semantics of it all. I really don't like the terms democrat and republican. I jsut happen to beieve most of thie things that democrats stand for. However, if there were to be a republican running for office who was pro-choie, pro-civil unions and had a fantastic education plan and a foreign policy I agreed with, I would have no problem voting for that person.

There are democrats who are anti-choice and oppose gay marriege, just as their are republicans who are pro-choice and are for gay marriage. There are anomolies for each term, and I have a very hard time generalizing people.

On the way to the March for Women's Lies in April, one girl on the bus with us said that if she meets a person and they say they are a republican, she immediately doesn't like them anymore:zoinks. (she also said that it is wrong to go to church, but that's another matter entirely:mad). I could not believe that someone could be so judgemental.

As people with ED's (recovering, recovered or whatever) we live our lives (or did at one point) by lables. There is no need to face recovery and then be immersed in this labelling all over again in the rest of the world.

But maybe it's just me.

:bat battgyrll :bat
Sara

[Vicks]

I think battygrl - you pointed out something very true, there deffinitley are people who "are Republican and pro-choice" In fact a woman I use to work with worked for a "Republican Pro-Choice Organization"

So, if I could take back the tittle of this post, maybe I should have said:

Why is it that mostly only liberal views are expressed here?

I do not view people who have "bashed bush" as ignorant, just expressing their views, and in politics, name calling occurs, it just does. I suppose "Bush Bashing" isn't a good thing to do but why hasn't anyone "Kerry Bashed"? Why hasn't anyone posted posts about "conservative issues, and views?" I mean, currently here in the US we have a Republican President, House, Senate, which leads me to beleive that the majority of people in this country who vote are more "conservative" and to me someone who votes obviously cares more than someone who doesn't. This somewhat makes sence to me, because studies have shown that as people get older they tend to become more conservative in thinking.

Why doesn't the "small town young woman/man from a chirstian houshold raised to beleive in Marriage, anti-gay unions, anti-divorce, "God" in the pledge of allegiance" and moms staying at home, feel unwelcomed and/or discouraged from posting?" From the peopel I know from SF, a good chunk of them are conservative and beleive in those things, yet I never see them on this board. - and yes some liberal minded people may have similar views, but the ones I named tend to be more conservative in nature. I would like to see a variety of ideas and "jabs" and politics over here, I can personally only handle so much "Liberal idiology" sometimes.

Vicks



I

[IthinkIcan]

:hugon Sara :hugoff Grrrrrrrrrrrr to the rather confused, angry girl you met. Sounds to me as if she has met some rather ignorant, hurtful people. Too bad she has become one. Strange how this works.

I thought of doing similarly to one of the other fishies, sorta laundry-listing some of my beliefs. Had quite a laugh actually. Don't know if you align with anything in your country, but you can join my confuzzled supposed "independent" status here--although that never quite works out either, although I won't explain. It has come to mean something different than it once did, basically. I loathe the fact that in our country we have to vote "straight ticket" for primaries. This means we DO have to align ourselves with a party at least for primaries. I prefer to look at the individual. Then, too, admittedly, platform is important. This brings one back to party. To the one outside this country. This is quite what you described.

In the US we actually have several parties. The most commonly referred to parties are Republican and Democrat.

Other parties are as follows (and these are just the ones who have endorsed a candidate for office): aw, heck, there are, what? thirty (Yikes!) six!

Some of the more commonly known ones are:

:bounce Republican known for being more "conservative," generally (erg, is that blue or white collar :winky actually I do know, I just hate this kind of thing), fine, they are stereotyped as being more well-to-do, business owners, anti-welfare/anti-helping others, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriages/civil unions, anti gay adoptions, let's see, any other fine how do you do's (lovely stereotype, eh), oh, pro-war, pro-flat tax or equalized taxation.

:bounce Democrat pro-socialized medicine, pro-second chance/welfare/helping others/national healthcare, pro-choice, pro-gay marriages/civil unions/adoptions, working/labor class, tax the rich.

:bounce Libertarian Party - The LP, founded in ****************, bills itself as "America's largest third party." Libertarians are neither left nor right ... they believe in total individual liberty (pro-drug legalization, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-home schooling, anti-gun control, etc.) and total economic freedom (anti-welfare, anti-government regulation of business, anti-minimum wage, anti-income tax, pro-free trade, etc.). The LP espouses a classical laissez faire ideology which, they argue, means "more freedom, less government and lower taxes."

:bounce Green Party of the United States (Green Party) The Green Party -- the informal US-affiliate of the left-wing, environmentalist European Greens movement.

:bounce The Greens/Green Party USA (G/GPUSA) -- The G/GPUSA is the older, smaller and more stridently leftist of the two Green parties.

:bounce Independence Party The IP -- which is entirely under the control of Ventura and his allies -- describes itself as "Socially Inclusive and Fiscally Responsible." Like Ventura, the IP is pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-medical marijuana, pro-gun rights and fiscally moderate.


So, my :confused laundry list of beliefs.

I am a conservative Christian.

I am pro-life, but I do not want to see abortion completely banned. I just loathe to see it misused the way it is. If I could be shown that the MAP prevents conception, then I feel it should be legalized YESTERDAY. If it merely prevents implantation, well, damn. This is just more shaky ground, but it seems to me that it fairs better than the alternative. I do, however, think it ought to be highly regulated. Mainly so as to PROTECT the future reproductive health of those gaining access to it. And, in this country, the whole lawsuit factor. Grrrrrrr. Just look at Metabolife. That was during the year where there was a WARNING!!!!!!!!

I am PRO legalized medicinal marijuana and borderline recreational. DEFINITELY PRO PRO PRO medicinal marijuana. What's the HOLD-UP! Recreationally I have many more hang-ups, but I could debate for or against it. I more or less wish that this country would show some CONSISTENCY. Alcohol IS A DRUG, so is marijuana. One is legalized; one is not. We have one that is filling up our prisons while violent offenders go free. Think of the case spoken of on here today. Violent offenders such as the child murderer would have space to be held if non-violent offenders weren't being held, sometimes for outrageous periods of times, for possession. Substance abuse is not a problem treatable by imprisonment, and sometimes I think there is a bigger problem made by the substance being made illegal. Could you imagine if ED behaviors were illegal? Then again, this could all be an argument to keep marijuana illegal, except medicinally.

I'm still quite uncomfortable with the legalization of "civil unions." I'm also uncomfortable with not supporting loving, monogamous relationships. I AM in a quandry here. And I have flat out argued that a gay, er, INIDIVIDUAL can parent. Certainly children are better off in a loving homosexual home with committed, loving parents than in abusive situation or an orphanage. Now is it better than a loving, committed, two-parent heterosexual home?

I believe in the right to have a concealed weapon.

I believe in the right to access to healthcare for ALL!

I believe in mental health parity.

I believe more research/trials need to be dedicated to women.

I believe adoption laws need to change. People aren't supposed to "buy" babies.

I believe taxes should be equal for all. No "tax brackets" or punishing those who work to make more. Last year my husband got a sizable raise. In the end, however, due to it taking us into a new tax bracket, we learned it didn't change our true income by much of anything as we had to be careful with our taxes. **I've ALWAYS believed this**

I believe secondary (college) education should be made available, even if by unsubsidized loans, to anyone who wants to better themselves.

I believe minimum wage needs to be increased.

I believe we need to look at the daycare crisis.

I could go on :winky

:sleepy

I have a lot of things I look at. And I haven't even mentioned some of my fired up viewpoints.

Too sore to sit here anymore.

B'bye.

:love
:train

[Anakalia]

Okay ... interesting topic.

I am a Republican and a Bush supporter.
I reply to things here occasionally, but not too often. I feel like most of the time the political topics are dominated by :pinkfishy 's with a stonger liberal point of view. That is fine, don't get me wrong -- but I guess I feel that I don't have anything to say that would really make a difference. Also I can get into political debates very easily. I just received my BA in political science if that gives you a hint. I can get flustered easily at times and therefore chose to stay out of the topics posted here. I really enjoy political talk and debating, but I guess I also rather have discussions about it in person.

I also think (me thinking) that when people are not happy with a situation or a President / leader / Prime Minister etc. they will voice their opinion more strongly then those who side with what is going on. When people don't agree with things they want to talk to others who don't agree with the same things, it is almost some sort of comfort to know that you are not the only one and to hash out your frustration and anger. I know that the current administration and the situation abroad has ticked some people off ... that is fine ... but when that happens and you feel angry about it you are more likely to talk about it then if you agree with it. Since for the past year and a half things have been going on that many people are not happy with (could be a generalization -- but I would say many more liberal people are not happy with and more liberal (please don't get upset with that term I don't know what else to type right now) people post in this forum) they have the tendency to post it so they can talk to others who feel the same way. And therefore, the forum has been tiped to the more "liberal" side in the recent past.

As for the sterotyped Republican I am not.
I am pro-choice becuase I do not believe the government should be able to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their body. I beleive in what Grover Norguist (a republican who is famous in DC for his Wednesday table lunch talks) says ... something along the lines of, "we get together as republicans on Wednesdays to talk about ways to make sure government stays as out of our lives as possible. We are republicans who disagree about many things, except wanting government out of our daily activities." That is not a direct quote, but anyways. I am not going to go down the list right now, but just because I am a registered Republican and support Bush / Cheney, does not mean I agree with everything in that administration or fit the republican sterotype to the T.

[Marigold]

Here's a thought:

people who are conservative often (note: I said *often* not *always*) tend to be religiously conservative too.

It is hard to debate someone like this. Not because they are "wrong" and I am "right" (which I may privately think so, but I do have that right - and I know they think they are "right" and I am "wrong" too) -

it's hard to discuss ideas w/Christians because they will feel you are immoral (or your ideas are) if you diagree with them.

I'm *not* saying that disagreeing w/non-Christians or liberals is easy either.

Let's just say that religion complicates things for those who are non-believers.

For those who are believers, the fact that religion "complicates" things is to be desired.

But for non-Christians or non-believers it is not to be desired - religion, that is, as a guide on how to feel about political issues.

So....
what to do?

I think Amy is absolutely right to ban abortion talk because that is embroiled in religion for many people.

Having religious fights and debates is not going to help anyone here.

I think we all need to be respectful.
I'm sure I've been one who has hurt others w/my forthright views here - for which I am sorry.
And I too have been hurt by other's views - by how they state them more than the views.

I do feel just as strongly regarding what I think abot issues as do people w/opposing views.

Amy's guide is for "respectfulness" - to "respectfully" discuss issues.

I think you can have sometimes heated debates and still have respect.

I think the problem is that people's ideas of what constitutes respect differ.

Also - when agreement will not occur - having to "agree to disagree" is not a bad thing.
-Marigold:sun

[IthinkIcan]

You would be right to think it isn't easy to disagree with liberals/"non-religious" people either. Why? These people follow a "religion" of their own in that religion is a "set of beliefs," simply stated. The difference comes in what that belief system is based on. The Christian's religion is based on the Bible and foundations found within. The "liberal" or "non-religious" or "non-Christian" bases their belief system on something else, but it is always based on something. For example, many people here would believe that all people have the right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness, etc. They interpret this to mean that, basically speaking, whatever feels good, do it, short of harming others, and elevating one's own rights. This encompasses the pro-choice ideal, which says, "it's my body!" I'm not completely disagreeing. I've seen the diametric opposite taken too far, where the needs of the unborn have been elevated above that of the mother, the mother relegated to carrier status (it was a Catholic hospital, and *I* was the mother). This, of course, would mean that love is good and pure in all forms and ought be supported. It would be easy to expound here. A great thing.

I have to wonder, though, when you bring up morality. What is morality but right or wrong, and you have admitted that both sides likely take to labeling their side or the other "right" or "wrong." Morality is not avoided in avoiding the Christian religion. I think that the discomfort enters in because the idea of morality exists, period. Judgment does not cease to exist just because Christianity is brushed aside. Rather, it just brushes aside the opposing viewpoint, the one you see as "wrong," which, interestingly, would be "immoral."

That's why I wish we would seek to understand one another. This isn't a place for political debate. Again, I've been reminded. It is a place to respectfully air our opinions on present current affairs. So, why ought anyone keep their opinions silent or have them torn apart. Is opinion wrong? Mods? What about the message that we are to remember it hurts?

[SFishy]

I just want to address several points.

I don't know that I agree this is a more liberal crowd. I think lots of members here just don't get much into their political opinions (or do so in enough detail). It's not the goals of these forums and never has been, so it's never the focus. Maybe when we get closer to election day we'll make a poll out of what political party sufferers and those in recovery identify with most :winky

Opinions are just that -- opinions -- and are not censored here. Where Tony or I have to step in is when it gets argumentative and mean, or when it's a debate that is counterproductive to the original intent of the post. For example, if someone comes along requesting support because they just went through an abortion, it is not the time or place in these forums to argue over whether it's "right" or "wrong". It's a touchy and sensative subject and these forums are aimed primarily at people feeling supported... they cannot feel supported if the issue they are currently struggling with is being attacked. It is NOT equally hurtful to the person NOT going through the abortion to NOT be able to say how wrong it is... and you could even say it comes down to healthy boundaries. Someone who has gone through an abortion and is really struggling with that, what healthy purpose does it serve to have them feel attacked or argued about? And what purpose does it serve to debate the decision from a political standpoint if the end result is the person not feeling supported at all -- when that is what these forums are about... getting support.

There are only a few topics like this, and probably only a couple of handful of times we've even had to address issues like them here on the boards.

That's why I wish we would seek to understand one another. This isn't a place for political debate. Again, I've been reminded. It is a place to respectfully air our opinions on present current affairs. So, why ought anyone keep their opinions silent or have them torn apart. Is opinion wrong? Mods? What about the message that we are to remember it hurts?

I'm not really sure what you are referring to ITIC. There are few posts that get closed here in this specific forum (or even in all the forums as a whole). Like you said, it's not a place for political debate, and there HAVE been some pretty diverse topics that have been posted here in Current Events. If someone were attacking you for your views, I would be quick to close the post just as if you were attacking another for their views. Are there certain political topics that are just off limits? No... though there are some real touchy ones that could go off track easily that would get watched closely... from either "side" of the fence.

Tony and I both know not everyone agrees with our decisions on how we handle things here, and that's okay. We do the best we can and try to make our decisions looking at the group as a whole. Right in this thread views have been expressed, and no one is coming along to slam anyone for it. Of course, if it goes down that path, that's another story :winky

Take care of YOU

[Marigold]

Amy said:

"Like you said, it's not a place for political debate"

Now I'm getting a bit confused:confused....

Because political debate - I'm not sure how this, in and of itself, is something that does not belong in this forum

I'm not sure how it can be avoided either. It seems to come up because :fishy's identify themselves w/ideas and beliefs which, by nature, are political and which certain political parties espouse.

Can there not be political debate w/o being nasty about it?

I can see why people do get heated. I think it's human nature to, in one form of another, identify w/a "team" (republians, dems, idependents or whatever) and then "root" for that "team".

We all do it.

I guess it's important to remember, however, that a real *Person* is behind each and every post here - a person who deserves respect (and hopefully will also give it).

With politics, it probably even goes deeper then team mentality.
IThinkICan is right: liberals have their own "religion" of sorts - but that may be because deeply believing in certain ideas and ideals is a spiritual endeavor - regardless if one believes in god or not.

Extremism, however, on either side is, for me, very problematical. And to be avoided.

Of course, what's extreme for me might not be for someone else and so forth.
So it can get tricky.

-IThinkICan - w/o going into religious debate, I am agreeing w/you that yes, people of all types, religious or not, often feel very much they are "morally" correct for believing as they do.
What troubles me about religious-inspired beliefs in others is: how can one ever truly exchange ideas w/a person whose religion dictates how they believe?
If they feel god is on their side - then they have no reason to ever question or think about what they believe. No matter what, it will always come back to god. Therefore, before it even begins, an exchange of ideas is shut off.

Well, that's all I'll say about that. I certainly respect the fact that people who believe things due to their religion have every right to hold those beliefs, same as others.

Anyway, I've meandered around a bit here, as others have done w/their posts - this is a great topic that Vicks brought up - who knew it would generate so many interesting ideas?
-Marigold:sun

[tryingtobeme]

[i]Marigold said

-IThinkICan - w/o going into religious debate, I am agreeing w/you that yes, people of all types, religious or not, often feel very much they are "morally" correct for believing as they do.
What troubles me about religious-inspired beliefs in others is: how can one ever truly exchange ideas w/a person whose religion dictates how they believe?
If they feel god is on their side - then they have no reason to ever question or think about what they believe. No matter what, it will always come back to god. Therefore, before it even begins, an exchange of ideas is shut off.




I think you can truly exchange ideas with someone who is religious. Personally, I like to hear what non-religious people feel and why. A lot of times, I gain an understanding of why they feel like they do, and I respect that.

That said, if something I believe is based on the Bible, then in order to change my mind, you would have to show me how I have misinterpreted the Bible (which happens a lot) or that the Bible really does not address this issue at all.

With most debates that can get heated, I don't think a lot of people change their minds based on the other side's arguments, although it happens sometimes. But some people haven't made up their mind yet. I think by giving concrete arguments for our side, we can increase tolerance from the other side, as well.

I don't think anyone here could convince me to become pro gay marriage, based on the reasons I have mentioned already, which is based on religion. But by listening to the arguments for it, I think I gain an understanding of that point of view, and it increases my tolerance for the whole debate. I also cannot say that one day I might decide that I was wrong, I interpreted the Bible incorrectly.

I hope an open exchange of ideas continues. People should not be afraid to voice their opinion, especially here, when a lot of us are trying to learn to use our voice.

:love to the :fishy ies TTBM

[Vicks]

Can there not be political debate w/o being nasty about it?

I think there can be, but in reality, politics is something people do feel passionante about and hence, say what they want, I also think it is "up to invidivduals" to not request someone to refrain from saying X, but to deal with it. People can't get all bent out of shape, from one comment here and there especially in a political forum. I am maried to a guy whose family is very socialist in thinking. And often times they say things very anti-relgion, and I am "somewhat religious" but I don't try to change their view, I just sit and listen. The only thing name calling does is make ther person doing the name calling look a little silly perhaps.

I also have learned, that political discourses aim doesn't have to be to "convert someone" it is the whole "agree to disagree idiology"Discourse is discourse, it is a form of education.

Vicks

[IthinkIcan]

Amy, I really appreciate your reply. It provided what I was looking for, clarification. So, for that, I thank you very much.

By and large I support your decisions. In the past I have had a problem with a few regarding the one topic, and I could even do some proof-texting (saved them). The poster, one time, was uncertain of her decision and call abortion murder in her original post. Then *I* got annihilated for using *her* words. I was definitely trying to be supportive, as there are people who go into the decision this torn up who really have issues later. This was one of the posts that caused great fall-out. I personally know of two people who left, in time, largely due to that post.

YET, I will most assuredly admit to having made some GLARING errors in this particular arena. I've done some growing up. And I have my regrets.

I haven't been all wrong, and I most definitely have not been all right. Because of my past errors, though, I worried of appropriateness of certain sensitive political issues. There *has* been name-calling here. I *do* wish that would be cleared up, but overall I most wanted to see clarified what you did. I'm ever so glad to see that you closely monitor certain posts.

I respect your political leanings, which have come through over the past (OH MY!) eight years; I respect you and Tony and the work you have here. If it weren't for fishy and some of the practice I've had here with communication skills, I'm certain I wouldn't have grown as much as I have.

Thanks. Looking forward to getting more involved with this particular board as I hang on to recovery by the skin of my teeth. The next step of my recovery, as I recover from the hysterectomy, includes monitored dieting. I need :bowl now more than ever. Yet, I could see this next year seeing me "on the other side." :grin

:love
:train

[mytots]

I think many of us with more conservative views and morals tend to be less vocal b/c we don't want to sound like we arent "politcally correct" which is an ever broadening umbrella. It is good to have ppl express different views some are jsut more loud and forceful than others i suppose. I dont get into long and stabbing debates on message boards or even in real time (i.e.-posting back and forth a thousand and one times trying to prove i am right-er) b/c i know what i believe and hold true for me, and that if you dont agree well then that is your view and so be it.

Politics and religion are two things that i just don't like to discuss b/c no one ever wins and it just causes disaccord.

Also, controversy and arguing makes me want to throw up and that isn't a good thing. Neither is wasting what little time we have on Earth arguing.

[Vicks]

mytots- I am sorry that you feel the way you do, because to me "debate" isn't arguing. It is "debate" discussion.

When people discuss they do not have to do it in a way to make people change their views, that won't happen.

I work for a Zionist, organization, so basically I am surrounded by religion and politics every day, and we have heated discussions about things, but still we are all freinds where I work, and we are productive.

I also am completely against Political Correctness, serves no purpose, and I htink more liberal minded people are also starting to come around to that concept too.

Vicks

[RainbowOmega]

Debating and arguing are actually the same thing. They're synonyms of each other. They both mean to give reasons for and against something, and to contend or disagree in words. The difference in when they're used only depends on where and how the conversation is going. A debate is typically in a public forum and, more often than not, done in a respectful manner (or should be, but if you watch many debates, you know that many times it isn't because of how heated it gets). An argument can take place at any time, public or private, and doesn't have any rules about politeness.

What I usually like to do is only converse with somebody about ideas. I listen to others' views and state mine, but I rarely (except with very close friends and family) try to give reasons for one idea over another. I don't like the riled up feelings debates/arguments can cause - I don't like how they feel to me, and I don't like sensing them from others.

For the reasons SFishy stated:
And what purpose does it serve to debate the decision from a political standpoint if the end result is the person not feeling supported at all -- when that is what these forums are about... getting support.
... I'd like to not get involved in a conservative, liberal, or any kind of debate here at this site. This is where I want to come to feel cared about and to care about others.

RainbowOmega :rainbow.

[spiss]

DISCLAIMER: This post may be grossly behind the times, in regards to what has lately been said in this thread, due to the fact that it is late and I can't get to page three. If this is the case, please don't get upset with me... this is mostly in response to the first page or so.....



For anyone who still cares... this post is getting long- but I'll put my two cents in (after reading the initial post which sparked this discussion, and reading the first page of this post)....

I am perhaps an oxy-moron for this board.
I am a Young, Female, College Educated (liberal arts, no less), Conservative, living in a Liberal City, with Liberal roomates/friends/loved ones..(and poor as all get up to boot)........
I have spent much of my adulthood (and certainly my entire college experiance) having LENGTHY discussions and debates about politics, often having to justify my viewpoints to the liberal. VERY few people have even been so nice as to say that they can respect my opinions (albeit different from their own) at the end of these discussions. I have found (merely in my own experiance) that trying to start a discussion about politics usually ends up in a heated argument between passionate people, who spew cliches and insults back and forth like children, unwilling to budge. This juvenile behavior often turns in a hateful direction.
Now, I'm not throwing the first stone here, nor do I assume I am innocent of these crimes. It takes two to argue. I realize that (now...).
I have also recently noticed that, since the stakes of current events are so high right now (war, etc), the discussions become very intense. And it can get ugly.
Now, you might notice this happening frequently on this very current events board when people start to bring up conflicting political beliefs. Name calling, etc. becomes the norm.
To me, this seems like needless argueing, not to mention the fact that on an eating disorders recovery website, we should be building eachother up rather than insulting eachother's thoughts and bringing them down. Eh?
And thus, all this enpassioned discussion appears to simply be the breeding of dissention among brothers (and sisters). And, it highly probable that it is very rarely even profitable. How often do people "realize the error of their ways" and turn to "the other side"? Most often, I would venture to guess, people leave offended and hurt.
Personally speaking, I don't like dissention and arguments. I would rather turn the other cheek. This desire may be a conservative one. I have certainly seen it to be the case among conservatives that I know.... And, I have learned that turning the other cheek at the beginnig of an argument (debate etc.), rather than going headstrong into it, often spares some heartache and dissent.
This belief, as well, might be a conservative notion.
Either way, I just wanted to put my opinion in (when fairly prompted) about the lack of conservative responses. I am doing so as a conservative fishy who has been coming to these boards since long before this specific one was established, and as a lurker who often comes in to read up on current events, gets sparked by an offensive statement, and then (timidly, perhaps) decides to turn the other cheek, and exit quietly. Unseen, and without causing distress.

Thanks fishies for caring about the state of our world. I think we can ALL agree that THAT is what is most important here.

Spiss

[Vicks]

I suppose it real boils down to sometimes what interests people. Everything I read is about current events, politics, state of the government. Not necessarily, one political side versus the other, but commentaries, travelogues.

My entire job, is "political in nature". I find that if I were to be "Sensitive" even on this board, it would limit what could be accomplished. I do not feel that I personaly, have ever attacked one person and/or party, I try instead to advocate issues.

I feel that the more people turn a cheek, the more people walk away, the more apathy that ocurrs. It is the people with the passion to stick to their convictions and stand up for them, that truly make the world in which we live great.

I have walked away from a discussion at times, I also feel that it is not my job to "change someones opinion" people have their views, I have mine, but we can as adults discuss, I personally do not like discussing politics with my father, who is extremely conservative and often uses "derogatory names towards candidates and swears about them" to me, that isn't "productive" but I can debate with my co-workers, and my husband, and it is great I have a blast.

But that is me, to me, personally to many people don't care, so the more people who do, the happier I am. I don't really care so much on this board if I "ofend someone" or "if I cause some distress" , on other boards yes, but on a current events board, to worry about "offending someone" would well, stiffle discouse, and for me at least that is deffinitely not the purpose of a current events forum.

Vicks

[sflathinker]

Some of my beliefs are very liberal while others are very conservative. I don't find it productive to engage in conversations with anyone who is strong on one side or the other because the conversation tends to become emotional and people take that personally. I think that the reason this forum leans towards sounding liberal is because here, unlike so many real time places we can express ourselves without getting bashed. I can't think of too many places (outside of my home town of course) that a conversation about gay marriage or abortion wouldn't turn into a violent discussion. Here we have the opportunity to voice our opinions without as much negativity, plus I do believe we try to support one another and if I disagree with someone I'd rather stay quiet than start an arguement with someone who most likely has self esteem issues anyway. Now, please don't take that comment wrong, but most people suffering from an ED also suffer from low self esteem and have issues with feeling rejected and disliked...not the best place to start a heated debeat. I do think that many of us do not come to the current events forum because this isn't why we sign onto SF, so we may never know what the "marjority" is here.

[Camellia]

Sflathinker said: I think that the reason this forum leans towards sounding liberal is because here, unlike so many real time places we can express ourselves without getting bashed. I can't think of too many places (outside of my home town of course) that a conversation about gay marriage or abortion wouldn't turn into a violent discussion. Here we have the opportunity to voice our opinions without as much negativity
Based on what has been said in this thread & the other similar one, the sad thing is that the conservatives here don't feel that it is a safe place for them to express themselves without getting bashed. I think that is the message that is not being heard. Quite frankly, I believe that this board and sf in general should be a safe place for everyone to express their voice and learn to use it without fear of retribution or being bashed. It is no wonder that people have a hard time learning to do so and struggle with self-esteem when their voices are shamed and silenced because they are different than someone elses.

Cam

[sflathinker]

Actually, I mis-typed, I meant to say that in most places it is not safe to talk openly about such liberal issues and here it is. I agree that it is almost "reverse discrimination" if the conservatives don't feel comfortable.

I think anyone who strives to recruit others to their "side" has potential to sound both defensive and offensive in their discussions, however, if you are truly just sharing your beliefs then you also have to realize that people who are on the other end of the specturm aren't arguing with you...but rather what you believe. It should never be personal.

[Vicks]

if I disagree with someone I'd rather stay quiet than start an arguement with someone

Why if someone disagrees with someone does it mean that an argument will ensue? I disagree with lots of people, yet I do not get into an argument with them, we discuss openly. I find people at "extreme" ends, sometimes do not understand that you can "agree to disagree". I suppose I do come from a different enviornment in that on a daily basis, I discuss religon and politics, because it is my "job". But, if I wasn't able to "agree to disagree", I wouldn't be married to my husband, and I would have left my job long ago"


I also feel sad :sad if people with conservative leanings do not feel comfotable posting here, because if anything this board is a place that is more like the real every day world. What if this board, is one board that enables people who in general have a hard time expressing their views, to practice verbalizing and expressing them? I know for me, that there have been so many times in my life, where I have wanted to question someone, or speak my mind, and I haven't, but by coming to SF, I have learned that:

:bullet My views are ok and worthwhile, even if everyone else under the sun disagrees

I want people to feel comfortable posting what their views are on anything and everything. I live in a very liberal area, Northern New Jersey, I am not sure what the demographics are for people who come to SF, but I would imagine, a fair number come from "more liberal areas of the country" and others from "more conservative" areas.

I know that for me, I do go to other places to discuss politics in general, but I do enjoy coming here to discuss issues, because I think it is important, for people to care and to know what is going on. And I like that part of the "Real world" is here at SF, as I mentioned above, "it can be good practice"

Vicks

[ribbon]

Vicks said: I find people at "extreme" ends, sometimes do not understand that you can "agree to disagree".

There are a few issues that I feel so passionate about, I choose not to engage in conversations because with those who are not like minded. Those are religion and/or the existence of god, the right to choose, and gay rights/marriage. The reason I avoid such conversations is because in my experience it pushes people further apart.
I rely on one or two of my friends who have families with more conservative views to help explain to me this line of thinking.

I think that there are times when the best way to use one's voice is to stay silent and not engage in a conversation with someone I care for, about an issue in society, that can potentially cause ill will.
I agree with you :hugonvicks:hugoff that practicing those skills in a written forum has the ability to help people learn to do face to face with real time people in their lives.
Agreeing to disagree, not just about politics but about life, is a great daily life skill.

[Marigold]

Wow, this post is still going strong.
It certainly brings up alot of issues for :fishy's here.
The fact that, far as I can tell, there is pretty much *equal* representation of viewpoints giving responses - both liberal and conservative and in between - I'd have to argue that this is a pretty good indication that :fishy's w/more conservative viewpoints are *Not* refraining from expressing them on this forum.

Just my opinion.
And my bais is this:

" in most places it is not safe to talk openly about such liberal issues and here it is. I agree that it is almost "reverse discrimination" if the conservatives don't feel comfortable."

I really do feel that we are living in more conservative times than not - as a nation I see this, and personally in my life.
I know I get lots of grief when/if I express more liberal viewpoints on topics at typical lunch room conversations where I work. Which is a library. A place not Known to be especially conservative.

I think we all do have our bais's - the things and experiences that determine Why we think about certain issues as we do.

I don't want a more conservative viewpoint to be censored or shut up here (except for debates on "no-no" topics like abortion) - but -

It just seems to be that, overall, a conservative viewpoint is a viewpoint that is more widely accepted.

So when conservatives here write about the tough time they have around liberals - well, I guess I feel like, wow. Who knew?

Agreeing to Disagree - those are magic words for me. Maybe I don't always practice them right away but I try.

More History: I had a Very Very conservative father who shouted me down over any little 'ole thing I dared to voice.
But I never shut up for him.
We fought - boy did we fight!

I've learned to back off when I need to -
And make a stand for my beliefs when I need to -

And life is still not perfect for me and this forum will never be "perfect" and people will just have to sort it out and do their best here.

If we remember that we all are suffering w/our various forms of eds - no matter What our viewpoints are - maybe this will aide in our compassion for one another?
-Marigold:sun

[Vicks]

Marigold - I too grew up with an extremely conservative father, in fact I acutally worked on some Republican Campaigns in high school.

Now, I do not agree with a lot of what he beleives, and we really do not discuss much, but that is mostly because of the way he chooses to discuss things and that is by "yelling and trying to change someones viewpoint" Plus, in genreal I have little respect for him left.

I wonder where all of you "liberals" complaining about a conservative, society are living, because where I live "Eveyrone is pretty much liberal" There is a saying that a "Republican from NJ" would be a democrate in any other state.

I still have certain "conservative leanings" and am not nearly as "liberal" as my husband is. But oh well, we stil lmanage to have great conversations!!

Vicks

[Kensington]

I wonder where all of you "liberals" complaining about a conservative, society are living

I believe it's called The South :sarcasm.

[Marigold]

Vicks - I live in the garden state too - and I work in one of it's wealthiest counties - maybe that is why it is so conservative - I've heard others make the same observations about it.

What I meant though, is, as a *Nation*, I think we are more conservative than not.

I feel that it's almost considered to by "unpatriotic" if you don't believe or espouse certain views.
Example:
after the horror of September Eleventh - my landlady made sure to put a flag on her SUV.
Which is fine - many did.
But I did not like how the rhetoric was going - we have to fight them we have to bomb them we have to get revenge/vengeance -
that kind of attitude (understandable, I believe) was so thick in the air.
I felt that putting a flag in my car window was almost tantamount to me tacitly saying: I want them bombed too.
Which I didn't - So I didn't put a flag in.
I'm sure my ex-landlady thought much less of me.
Thank god I'm away from her now.

The thing is - the flag is for All of us to wave - liberals or democrats or conservatives or even fundamentalists.:cheesy
It belongs to no one group or person - it belongs to all.
Yet, for me (and others - Michael Moore has a great article he wrote on this topic www.michaelmoore) - the flag has come to symbolized overwhemingly a republican, conservative symbol.

People, on the whole, are more conservative than not, I've found.

I guess I'm glad I don't live in the midwest or south - great great places I"m sure.
But gee, if it's even more conservative there I'd really feel muzzled living in such a place.
Probably in such places I'd find lots to love - for one thing, maybe a less frantic way of driving. I hear they drive alot slower in places other than the northeast.
My friend in North Carolina says they do.
I'm all for that!
-Marigold:sun

[ribbon]

Vicks said:I wonder where all of you "liberals" complaining about a conservative, society are living,

Based on my personal experience, I am not condemning any group or people, just stating my experience.

:bullet Church- none of the major so called hot button issues were excepted in the church where I used to belong. (choice, gay marriage, stem cell research)

:bullet Military families- (again, not speaking for anyone but the people I know)seem to want more funding for the military

:bullet The very wealthy- (again, not speaking for anyone but the people I know) the wealthier people I know tend to vote for tax breaks that are primarily in their bracket and view welfare type programs as a waste unless they get people off welfare ASAP w/o realizing a job at a fast food place will barely pay for day care. Also, the people I know seem to think any health care is better than none (which it is) and medicaid and medicare don't need to be reformed.

[Vicks]

Marigold I would imagine you might live/work in Bergen county? I am nearby.

I actually grew up in the midwest, Indiana and Minnesota. Minnesota, if you didn't know has voted for the democrate running for office for the last thirty/forty years, after all Humphrey was from there!

Our country also we all have to remind ourselves was created based upon "Puritanical Values" After all, Puritans were the first ones here really and I do feel that those values are very pervasive in current society.

My husband felt very much the way you did about the Flag waving, after nine eleven. I had mixed feelings, I do sometimes wish that people who waved the flag would realize people who don't are ok, and people who don't wave the flag respect those who do. My husband often has a very skewed way I feel of viewing military issues, his grandfather a liberal, fought in a war and has different view points. I am for more military spending, but only on "Salaries" as I hate seeing people in the military living off of food stamps.

Ribbon - You should come to Northern New Jersey, you would be surprised with the amount of money here, (some of the wealthiest counties in the country are here) how many people are liberal minded. I do not disagree with what you said by the way, I think it makes sence some. And from where you live, perhaps, that is what you see.

As far as relgious stuff goes, touchy touchy issue ins't it? Again I think it depends on what religioun you are and what tenents of that religion you follow. Lots of people pick and chose, what they like about their particular beleif system.

Kensy - Yep, I suppose you are right. I actually think one thing that makes this country so intersting is the varied opionons and lifestyles one can find everywhere.

I also, hope that every person who has responded to this thread VOTES!!! This thread proves to me, that people do care, and have interests!!!

Vicks

[ribbon]

I have a friend in North Jersey and I've seen the houses there! I think that there is sometimes a big difference between socially conservative/liberal and fiscally conservative/liberal.
I don't personally know anyone who is socially liberal and catholic (where I used to go to church) or christian, but do know some protestants who are. I am only speaking from my experience and not judging any religion.

Our country also we all have to remind ourselves was created based upon "Puritanical Values" After all, Puritans were the first ones here really and I do feel that those values are very pervasive in current society.

Don't get me started :winky. That always makes me laugh because these are the people who hung witches in Salem and owned (and sometimes raped) slaves.

From the Declaration of IndependenceWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

While the declaration of independence calls for the separation of state and religion, it assumes that people believe in a supreme being often known as god. It also provides this for MEN and not women (no right to vote) and not slaves who obviously
didn't have the liberty to pursue happiness. The jews weren't welcome with open arms by the masses either.

Sometimes I think we need an updated version :winky.

[battgyrll]

:hugon ribbon :hugoff
"Hi! Nice to meet you. I'm socially liberal and Catholic!":cute

:bat battgyrll :bat
Sara

[ribbon]

battgyrll said: :hugon ribbon :hugoff
"Hi! Nice to meet you. I'm socially liberal and Catholic!":cute

:yay You don't know how happy I am to hear that because the two were starting to seem mutually exclusive to me (again, not judging the religion or anyone's religion or choices).
I emailed you a couple times, did you receive them?

[Marigold]

I think Ribbon brings up alot of good points.

You're right Vicks, this country was founded by Puritans (more the pity:cheesy)!

I, ah, have never *quite* been able to develop that ole protestant work ethic which I know is my birthright:ummm

Anyway, even though this country may have it's foundations w/the Puritans - we are definately a melting pot of many different ethnicities.

Hear! Hear! Hooray for that!
-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

I live in a city that has a majority population that is Hispanic, & I know plenty of people who are "socially liberal & Catholic"! I also know plenty of people who describe themselves as liberal & Christian.

[Jen]

ribbon said::bullet Church- none of the major so called hot button issues were excepted in the church where I used to belong. (choice, gay marriage, stem cell research)

If I recall correctly you originally considered yourself Catholic and most Catholics do at least for themselves as individuals feel abortion is not their choice. That said there are Catholic groups that are Pro-Choice. Personally I could never have an abortion but I don't feel I have the right to make that choice for anyone else. I am also Catholic. I think that the other issues also depend on the climate, details, and perspective. I don't think your perspective in your old church (as you alluded) is generalizable to Catholics in the USA.

ribbon said::bullet The very wealthy- (again, not speaking for anyone but the people I know) the wealthier people I know tend to vote for tax breaks that are primarily in their bracket and view welfare type programs as a waste unless they get people off welfare ASAP w/o realizing a job at a fast food place will barely pay for day care. Also, the people I know seem to think any health care is better than none (which it is) and medicaid and medicare don't need to be reformed.

My parents have yet to vote for tax breaks for their tax bracket and have definitely made choices throughout their life that have gone against increasing their income. Additionally many physicians (although as a group they are not as wealthy as they once were) have been champions of universal health care, and expansion of medicaid programs. Personally I think assistance programs should be short-term for people who are able to work and be geared towards them returning to the work-force.(not because I wish to spend fewer of my tax dollars funding them but because I think that we need to empower rather than give handouts--the reality is we live in a world where resources are finite something does have to give somewhere).

Just a few thoughts. Please remember I'm not challenging your experiences, rather I'm trying to remind you that there is hope! :peace

:love,
Jen:bear

[Jen]

ribbon said: I don't personally know anyone who is socially liberal and catholic (where I used to go to church) or christian, but do know some protestants who are. I am only speaking from my experience and not judging any religion.
:winky.

I'm confused, Protestants are Christian.

:love,
Jen:bear

[shortstop]

I went to Catholic school for twelve years! Yikes!! I can honestly say that being in that environment made me the liberal woman I am today. Why??? Because they were so conservative. I wanted a more open-minded perspective. As I matured I found that my beliefs differed so much from the faith that was shoved down my throat. Most Catholics (MOST being the operative word here) are not socially liberal. It is not in the nature of the religion. They're still on the rhythm mehtold for god sakes!! :surprise
I am not talking about easteregg and snowman Catholics here, I am talking about the Sunday deovoted. The "true" (as they would call themselves) Catholics. I can't speak for other Christian sects on how socially liberal they are. I hope times change within the church. I am happy to see that there are socially liberal Catholics swimming in the :bowl though, that's a good sign.

Jen said: That said there are Catholic groups that are Pro-Choice
Most catholic churches would not back this type of group. They would feel that it goes against their doctrine. The Church as a whole may even consider them out of the church, ie excommunicated.

Jen Said: Personally I think assistance programs should be short-term for people who are able to work and be geared towards them returning to the work-force.
I agree with this too. I hate that welfare can go on for so long. Yes, terrible things happen. Yes, people need help. But I feel that there needs to be some type of training program, schooling program. There are pleanty of welfare recipients who stay on welfare because they want to. Because they don't want to get out there, because it's easier. Maybe it should be a system like unemployment where you have to prove that you've been out and looking. My boyfriend's mother was in a welfare type situation when my bf was young. Her husband was abusive and she left. She moved into a woman's shelter with her little boy, went back to school and eventually got her masters. She had nothing and she prospered. So it can be done. I know it can. People have to want to do it; and if they don't they system has to force them to do it. No, McD's isn't glamourous, but it is a job.

[battgyrll]

Gotta make this short and sweet, although I have a different perspective to add to the welfare discussion later (but alas, work calls me!).

Ribbon, no i did not get your e-mails. Not sure if this address is working. Try battgyrll##@hotmail.com (numbers are one eight).

:bat battgyrll :bat
Sara

[Camellia]

:mad Ok, I've tried to say my piece gently here a few times, but I've had it.

I'm liberal & I care deeply about political issues. I'm also very interested in the differences between liberals and conservatives and how & why they view social issues differently ~ in fact, I am currently the primary investigator on a large research study that is investigating those differences.

Yes, there are differences between conservatives and liberals. Yes, some of those might appear to be related to religiousity or family upbringing. However, I have a very big problem with people making blanket statements about any group of people, including and not limited to conservatives.

I think it is unfair, intolerant, and discriminatory to make blanket statements such as christians or catholics (or any other group) aren't socially liberal, or religious people are of lower intelligence, or southerners are conservative, etc. To me, that is no different than saying that something like blacks are violent or gays are child molesters or women are weak and over-emotional. It is unfair to judge people by certain characteristics that really tell you nothing about who they are as a person including ethnicity, religiousity, sexual orientation, gender, age, political orientation, etc.

I encourage healthy discussions, but will not tolerate discussions that turn into lumping groups of people together and making judgement statements about them - because it is judgemental, intolerant, and could hurt a lot of people who are reading here and identify in some way with the groups of people that are being discussed, targeted, or bashed (like christians, conservatives, southerners, etc).

Please try to think about what you are saying before you judge people you don't even know because of your own negative experiences with a group of people or your own preconceived notions about a group of people. Everyone one is unique. Think about it.

Cam

[Marigold]

Cam,
To say that many people who are religious are not, as a whole particularly liberal is not the same as saying blacks are violent, gays are pedophiles and so forth.

The very values that religious people espouse come from their religions - and are therefore very often socially conservative values.

On the other hand - I think that Catholics (the religion I am most familiar with) are divided, on the personal level in terms of what they privately believe.

Someone that I work with attends church every week - yet he tells me that he and many other Catholics do not necessarily believe as the Pope mandates on many key issues of Catholicism.

I also do not think too many modern Catholics couples practice the rhythm method anymore!
Some might - but I doubt the vast majority of Catholics do.
-Marigold:sun

[ribbon]

I agree Marigold. We do not live in perfect world where no one has any preconceived notions about anyone or anything else. I like the pizza I get from shops owned by people from italy as opposed to americans. This is based on my experience eating pizza in my town, am I judgmental about the american pizza shop owners? I don't think so, it's a matter of taste.
I think personal experiences are valid, although not necessarily inclusive of all sides of a discussion.
I think it's better to state a belief that may not be politically correct and have the opportunity for others to expand the knowledge base rather than sitting on the thought because it's not PC. It can be done in a noninflamitory way.
In the real world everyone does not live without bias, even though individuals may. The more those predjudices are discussed by people who are open minded, the more opportunity there is to come together. I don't see that happening with everyone walking on eggshells, trying to present a perfect, ideal front being politically correct. I know that this is not a forum to discuss every issue in the world and that because people are suffering, recovering or recovered from an ED they may be more sensitive than those who are not.
We can respect someone's right to have different beliefs even if we don't necessarily respect a particular belief.

[Amsters]

another socially liberal Catholic jumping into the mix....

I don't have much else to add, but wanted to point out the vast array of Catholic social justice teaching. also, consider the multiple organizations, charities, and volunteer groups that are Catholic and contribute greatly to the social welfare scene through both direct service and structural change.

I'd say a lot of the differences are diocese-linked (regional). I went to college in the Richmond Diocese (VA), and it's notoriously among the most liberal dioceses in the country. activities include sponsoring gay and lesbian retreats for people who are Catholic, exploring new ways for Catholic teaching to develop and also giving support to people who are (traditionally) ostracized by the Catholic church. it's not mainstream Catholicism, but their activities are funded by the diocese and allowed/accepted by the greater USA church...

[ribbon]

Your church sounds great.
I had a wonderful priest who I went to for confession. I used to help run the youth group and one of the girls came up to me saying she was having unprotected sex and wanted me to come with her to get birth control at planned parenthood :zoinks. Of course I did, while also cautioning her about the only safe sex being no sex etc. I figured I was going to have to do thousands of hail marys :ohboy, but the priest said I did the right thing because I was not acting as part of the church but as an older friend. He got it. When he left for another parish, the replacement was ultra by the book conservative and that particular church became more, not less closed.

[Kensington]

Camellia, I wasn't trying to say that everyone in the South is conservative. I was answering a question about where all these conservative groups might be. There are plenty of liberal people in the South, but there are also plenty of conservatives. The Southern states are often known for being carried by the Republican candidate in the presidential elections, that's just a fact. Doesn't mean everyone here is a republican, but we do have quite a large population that is conservative.

[shortstop]

Marigold...
:muhaha
I should have specified what I meant by that. I was mostly tounge-in-cheek with the rhythm mehtod statement. But, the Catholic church is still not "for" birth control of any kind. I meant that as a half joke, and was also trying to show how behind the times they are. :ohboy :muhaha

[Vicks]

YOu know after reading the seventy or so replies isn't it amazing at how we have all been able to truly answer "my initial question?" Albeit, the answer to that question is varied, but none the less I think people have really started to think more.

I also am glad, that there have been so many people who have responded, because it proves that there are a variety of opinions and idiologies here and that truly all opinions are welcome.

Vicks

[ribbon]

:yay Great thread Vicks!

[Marigold]

Shortstop -

True enough - I think the *official* line from the Catholic Church might very well still be:
no birth control Except the rhythm method (so hard to spell - let alone practice :confused)!


Vicks - I agree, great thread - here's another :yay

-Marigold:sun

[SanFran]

Cam,

Your study sounds absolutely fascinating! It would be awesome if you wanted to share the results with the :bowl (or even e-mail me them :shy).