Anger at US foreign policy, the world...

[nikto]

:bowl, I would love your insight here.

I am distraught and triggered beyond belief by US foreign policy these days, by the conflict I see in the world. Deep down I don't believe in free will, but it's hard to forgive people for their mistakes and lack of compassion, for focusing almost exclusively on close family, for not having been taught geography, for not knowing the faces and souls comprising various "axes of evil," for myopic religious views. It makes me so angry. It's not just a matter of this administration or that, or indeed of any particular group of people--but I take time to stay up on current events and prioritize my volunteering, charitable giving, and to try to understand people whose views I disagree with (I worked in development with a corrupt communist government last year, I saw how it works) and it still drives me batty that there are people who care more about... well, stupid shit. Yes, that's a value judgment. I'm not a moral relativist.

Perhaps this should go in the spirituality forum. :ugh Today I was enormously triggered by the celebrations in Falluja and the dumbass debate (I hate Fox News) about whether to air images--as though we have any right NOT to acknowledge and try to grasp what's really going on. (I don't mean to say it's bad or misguided--just that we've got a LONG way to go.) And I also watched a documentary on Rwanda, which saddened me terribly.... just the apathy.... tit for tat, quid pro quo, as though fate awards us our nationality based on moral deservedness!

I don't know. I have a lot of anger in me now. I can see how it might be difficult to stomach, but if anyone has ideas on this, I'd love to hear them.

Thank you.

Sarah

[ribbon]

You are definitely NOT alone. There are other posts in this forum with lots and lots of responses saying the same thing as you. There are times I'm embarassed to be an american because of the way Bush has handled almost everything domestic and foreign. I only hope that his days as our president are numbered counting down to November.
Triggered? Not me, but angry, sad, confused, embarrassed, frustrated etc etc etc.

[nikto]

:hugonribbon:hugoff, it is so comforting to know you and others can feel the same way.

I guess my problem is just the degree, my absurdly (?) high standards for other people. I'm always asking why things are the way they are, tracing back various administrations' stances to PACs and public opinion, and especially how people form their opinions, and it's hard for me not to hold people accountable sometimes. Again, I don't really believe in free will, but for all intents and purposes I can't excuse people for not caring more or being dumb, or blaming their lack of time on their family. (Having kids and getting married are moral decisions, dammit.) It's :wacky.

I've also learned that Americans, for the most part, at least have the sense to feel guilty about injustices in other parts of the world, even while proclaiming non-intervention. Europeans too. In many other countries, questions of involvement never hit the radar screen.

The triggering thing is really that my views feel so extreme. Most people don't even vote, for goodness sake; they don't watch how they vote with their wallets either. I can't blame them, yet I want to.

Nutty...

Bleh. This makes me look really arrogant. :ugh I have strong convictions.

Sarah

[ribbon]

:hugon nikito :hugoff
One of my closest friends lives in Holland and over the past seven years she has really opened my eyes to how the :usa is viewed through out the world. I'm so thankful for her because she really educated me and taught me to not be so naive when viewing our country.
It :reallymad maddens me that more people don't exercise their right to vote when some people don't even have the right to elect their officials.
I totally believe in free will, which is where we differ. Can you explain to my why you don't? I'm just curious to hear your views.

[nikto]

:hugonribbon:hugoff, thanks again for your reply.

I think part of the problem is that Americans don't get enough time off work. Whenever I'm abroad in developing countries, I'm struck by how many Europeans, Canadians, Aussies and New Zealanders are out and about on vacation and how few Americans. It's too bad.

Your comment about voting reminded me about how widely perspectives can diverge. The parents of one of my friends here are immigrants from Vietnam (left in the seventies). We were talking about how offensive it is to see people wear "communist chic" garb, e.g. red stars and Soviet or Chinese field uniforms, with regard only to fashion and none to politics. It just makes me wonder whether people realize the horrible reality in many parts of the world! That said, I saw some kids in Laos wearing Osama bin Laden shirts, and when I asked they had no idea who he was, and American flag motifs seem to be apolitical fashion statements in themselves out there. And there are also these "Osama bin Laden's Army" decal sets for cars that were popular--it's weird--the paramilitary look in SE Asia blends Vietnam War (American) symbols with current terrorist ones. And no one really has a clue because literacy rates are low and the media is state-run and shitty.

Sorry for the digression.

Re free will: I believe in determinism; that is, that the whole universe is governed by the same forces. In theory, there might be some sort of exceedingly complex equation that could explain what will happen, but there are way too many parameters, some of which we probably don't know or can't measure, for us to attempt anything like this in the near future. Are approximations possible? Yes--and that's where climate change forecasts, epidemiological models, psychotropic medications, and political and economic game theory can be useful.

The reason I feel viscerally certain is that cause-and-effect relationships are being unveiled increasingly often, and science is producing the most seamless and comprehensive world-view.... according to the world as we are physically able to perceive it, anyway (umwelt). I cannot think of any reason why humans would operate in a separate sphere from nematodes.

The lack of free will in itself doesn't bother me. I do feel like I'm making decisions freely, and I enjoy it very much, but I believe I'm no more than the sum of my experiences and chemistry (as exciting and complex as they may be). I watch my life unfold before me as an active player, but also knowing that I am fundamentally utterly predictable. That's fine. The unfolding's awesome.

The problem is what the lack of free will does to moral responsibility. When I behave abhorrently, I hold myself responsible. I might understand why, but I do not excuse myself from making the same mistake in the future. I can't say the same for others. What makes someone less compassionate? What makes someone an altruist? A martyr? Unskeptical? Religious? Rational? Would I have cared if I did not read so many books on philosophy and spirituality as a kid? If my parents had abused me?

I honestly do not know where personal responsibility begins for other people. Some people are stupid. That sounds terrible, but it's true. Sometimes it's a formal diagnosis, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it keeps them from getting the death penalty, sometimes it doesn't. Same goes for compassion, for every kind of personality trait you can think of. Do they have any control over their genetic predisposition, their environment as a child, the tools they were given? Even choosing to develop certain tools requires values and priorities that are themselves influenced--governed--by factors over which we have no control. Why are some people attracted to Thoreau? Why are some people Good Samaritans? What makes people more and less attracted to certain ethical systems in the first place?

Can I accuse my sister for not caring more about the global community? Can I blame people for not contemplating their value systems more? Can I blame the officials I worked with for putting the needs of their family before the needs of their country, i.e., other people? I see where they come from. Furthermore, I can't claim that the things I do right today I do because of skill--it's "luck," stuff I didn't have control over.

This dichotomy in moral responsibility is what eats me up. I feel like I have no right to this anger at others, and yet I'm very angry. And I know I have a lot left to learn and am probably wrong about many things, which makes me more irritated with myself.

Bleh. Quite another digression! Your posts always interest me, :hugonribbon:hugoff, so I'd love to hear more thoughts on this, if you have them. Same goes for other :fishy reading along. Now I really do feel this belongs in the spirituality forum! :happy Oh well.

Sarah

[ribbon]

:hugon nikito :hugoff
Your response :confused me even more :muhaha. I think some of it went over my head :muhaha. Can you clarify how making choices and taking responsbility fit in with that thinking? Are you saying that you were destined to make those choices?
I think the traveling and vacation theory is an interesting one. I know my friend from Holland talks about going to different countries the same way we talk about going to different states, because of the size of the countries in Europe. She gets to appreciate the cultural differences and language in the different countries that is much different in going from Kansas to Oklahoma than from Holland to Ireland :muhaha.

[nikto]

Are you saying that you were destined to make those choices?
Yep. Take initial conditions A, B, and C, apply laws of physics and chemistry (not all uncovered, clearly), and voila, I decide to buy vacuum bags this afternoon.* I generally don't believe that an omniscient, omnipotent, sentient being (a.k.a. God) arranged this--it's not some Calvinist thing.

Sorry about the jargon. :wacky I'm not a clear writer.

I think it's also easier to leave the country--and especially to skip multiple time zones--if you've got four or five weeks of vacation instead of two. Most countries have more vacation time than the U.S. does, from what I understand.

Sarah

*Anyone who's reading who's into quantum theory: I'm not positing "If X, then state Y must follow"; it could be, "If X, then Y is the most likely state to follow of infinite set of states..."

[Vicks]

Most people don't even vote, for goodness sake; they don't watch how they vote with their wallets either. I can't blame them, yet I want to.

Yep, this in itself infuriates me. Lots of things do, but apathy, is the worse thing in the world to me. I don't blame a lot of people for not knowing the X happened in blank place, because a lot of people just arne't exposed. I have a freind who grew up in a small town in Illionois, went to a college in Illionoise, never left Illionis, she has preconceived ideas on things, because noone in her circle of influence has shown her other ways of thinking and seeing the world.

I feel I am greatly spoiled as I was exposed as a child to politics, different people and cultures, and I grew up in Indiana and Minnesota, but my family was interested in those things. And they still are.

People in my opinion who need to vote the most don't. People who are disenfranchised tend to not vote. To me, every person in Something Fishy who cares about medical insurance should vote, not voting to me means "don't complain" And I really strongly beleive this.

I use to cut people a lot more slack in not knowing things, like the freind I mentioned above, but with the way communication has developed and advanced now, one can find out about everything and anything.

when I studied abroad I thought it was very sad that my host family knew so much about the US. The US is everywhere so that is fine, but I do think it would be nice for people here in the US to think "um.. maybe I should know something about one or two other countries and/or places"

Ok, so this was long, as you can tell I am very political and I volunteer and do fundraising as a profession, I just don't know how to get people to care. I have a link at the bottom of my signature that says "change the world please vote" it goes to the rock the vote site. I put it there with the hopes that one person might click and start caring.

Nikto - yes many countries do have more vacation than people in America do, but you know what? YOu don't have to travel abroad to care. My husband has never been out of the country but he cares and knows about the world. I have heard the excuse of "oh I have never been there" and because of that they feel "why care?"

So, people like useing excuses to absolve themselves a lot I think from learning, and I also feel that more guilt isn't always a bad thing. People should care, people are dieing in this world every day to have the right to vote, and people not jsut in the US don't care, and it really really bothers me.

Vicks

[shortstop]

I agree with you on your point of view on apathy and how people in general do not educate themselves.
I'll use WWII for my example. Everyone (I mean the general uneducated population) exclusively blames the Germans. Stay with me here...yes they were at fault...they committed horrendious attrocities. But no one looks back at the backlash from WWI that laid the groundwork for what happened in Germany. The US and the treaty that was lined up laid the foundation for a dictator to take over by shoving Germany into endless debt. Of course I just nutshelled it....but you're obiously educated and I think you will probably understand my drift.
I don't think that people take the time to really understand why certain things happen...they assume face value is correct which is frusrtating to me. In an odd way that is why I do believe in free will. I think that most people choose not to know, it is too much work for them to do some reading. There are some things that nature dictates...our genetics dictate how "smart" we are or how "easy" it is for us to comprehend ideas. Beyond what nature and biology hand us at birth we are then responsible for what we do with it. I think we can choose to do what we want with what we have. And that is why I find political, religious, econocmial, etc issues frustrating...because people do have the right to choose (like voting) and they often don't. In a way, I think that I wouldn't be so frustrated if there wasn't free will. By the way....good post. :grin