The Great Apostrophe Debate!!

[dreya]

Okay, I'm often bothered by the abuse of the apostrophe - signs like this:
"Fresh banana's!"
and this "Lot's of styles to choose from!"
annoy me greatly.
But here is a question for you! Which of these examples do you feel is correct?

"Mr. Jones' new car"
or
"Mr. Jones's new car"

I have seen many examples of each style in reputable publications....sometimes it is even inconsistent within the same book! Like, I was reading a book today which had this sentence:
"Brown's and Harris's research...." and then a few pages later: "Jim Jones' group of more than seven hundred followers..."

I've been looking on the internet for stuff about this and have seen each style shown to be the correct one.

Which way do you prefer?
(And am I waaaaaay too concerned about this? :sarcasm)

love, dreya :pinkfishy

[Anonymous_Member004]

:hugonDreya:hugoff this caught my attention:supergrin i would choose "mr. Jones' car". my last name (Rich) has the same problem. Rich's car, or Riches car, or Richs' car? help:grin or when one refers to the whole family, the Rich's, the Richs', or the Richs, arrrggg!

[dreya]

OOo, I'd say "Sabi Rich's car" and if it is your whole family's car, "the Riches' car". I think that's correct!

[RainbowGirl]

dreya! this is totally the kind of thing i can obsess about. :happy

i choose "mr. jones' car".

you're right: there is too much apostrophe abuse in the world.

[lilsweetie]

It annoys me so much when people put

"its" instead of "it's"
in that example, i think the Jones' one is right.
I wish people would just learn their grammar!

[miss_scarlet]

I'm SOOO glad to see that I'm not the only person highly annoyed by apostrophe abuse.

I believe Mr. Jones' car is correct. :happy

[Mully]

I agree with you all- especially when it comes to store advertising or packaging. Isn't someone paid to edit all of that stuff? I guess I gotta thank my English teachers for making me learn and remember all of these grammar details! :yay

[v-ball]

Anyone care for a semi-complete apostrophe grammer lesson? Well, I hope so, 'cause I'm going to go for it anyways.

How about we start with the word "it", & when to use an apostrophe with it? If you are making the word "it" possesive, then there is no apostrophe. However, if you're contracting "it is" into one word, you use the apostrophe, so that you have "it's".

Possesive form of other words

If it already ends in s, like "Jones", then you only put an apostrophe, so that would be "Jones' ". However, if it does not already end in s, then you put apostrophe s, so "her" would become "her's".

Then, of course, there's the question Sabi brought up. The correct form for saying "her family's new car", using their last name rather than "her family" would be "the Richs' new car". The reason is because in order to refer to her family as a group, it needs to be plural. So the same rule applies for that as it would Jones.

Any other apostrophe questions? (BTW, I'm a writer. I have to know this stuff. However, not all writers are perfect. The ones who are usually have editors who don't know what they're doing, so they make incorrect grammer corrections, trying to help the author.)

Now, I have a question for y'all. Who else is bothered by the improper use of the word "there" versus the word "their"? And what about the use of quote marks? Does improper use of quote marks bother anyone else?

LOL. I think everyone here can tell now that I'm either a writer, a teacher, or potentially both. *shrugs* Oh well. I'm the grammer queen according to many. So if you have a grammer question, please feel free to ask!

Much :love,
Amanda

[GlorytoGod]

:hugon Amanda :hugoff

Just curious...

Are we talking about grammer or grammar ?

I guess it's not spelling, eh?

I hope you know I'm just kidding...I hope you aren't offended, hon!

~Becca

[v-ball]

LOL. You found my weak spot.

Amanda

[Chele]

Guess what? According to the Chicago Manual of Style (which is THE bible for editors), you are all wrong!

The general rule is as follows:

The possesive of singular nouns is formed by the addition of an apostrophe and an s, the possessive of plural nouns (except for a few irregular plurals) by addition of an apostrophe only (Mr. Jones's or the Jones').

Traditional exceptions to the general rule for forming the possessive are the names Jesus and Moses (Jesus' and Moses'), not so for Charles (Charles's is correct).

Here is a direct quote:

"How to form the possessive of polysyllabic personal names ending with the sound of s or z probably occasions more dissensions among writers and editors than any other orthographic matter open to disagreement. Some espouse the rule that the possessive of all such names should be formed by the addition of an apostrophe only. Such a rule would outlaw spellings like "Dylan Thomas's poetry," "Roy Harris's compositions," and "Maria Callas's performance" in favor of "Thomas'," "Harris'," and "Callas'," which would not commend themselves to many. Other writers and editors simply abandon the attempt to define in precise phonic or orthographic terms the class of polysyllabic names to which only the apostrophe should be attached and follow a more pragmatic rule. In essence this is, "If it ends with a z sound, treat it like a plural; if it ends with an s sound, treat it like a singular." Thus they would write "Dickensens', Hopkins', Williams'," but also "Harris's, Thomas's, Callas's, Angus's, Willis's," and the like. The University of Chicago Press prefers the procedures outlined above (****.********-********). It is willing, however, to accept other ways of handling these situations if they are consistently followed throughout a manuscript."

So there you have it! Consistency is the key! Happy grammar! :)

P.S. Sorry, the stars reference the section numbers that deal with the general rules for possessives.

[LostEarthAngel]

And people think we focus on ourselves and our ed's too much!

Next time you think you have nothing to say at a party, might I suggest this topic?

:sarcasm

kidding :fishy....I guess I just never gave this kind of thing too much thought, but wow....some of you have given it some SERIOUS thought!

Again, I am sorry. I know this wasn't meant to be an amusing post....cannot help it tho...I am amused easily.

Punctuation always confused the crap out of me. I would always use too many of ,,,,, those guys,,,,,still do! :winky And when do you know to use : versus ; versus just plain old ,?

Ok. I do know how to use this guy----->. And yes, ?! are fairly easy. Although some people really abuse this guy !!!!!!!! But what is the deal with this one ~ ? It's cute and all but does it mean anything?

:sly

[dreya]

Lost Earth Angel - no, that's fine, it actually was supposed to be a funny post - because it's one of those not-very-important issues that are fun to obsess over! :shy
Okay, this: ~ is called a tilde. It's used in Spanish to denote the sound of the n in words like Senor, and in Portuguese over vowels to indicate nasality. It is also used in mathematics and logic to indicate negation. But, it's also just kinda pretty :cheesy
love, dreya :pinkfishy

[RainbowGirl]

i am a huge fan of ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.

:sarcasm.

i sometimes use it instead of a dash in email. like:

ok, that sounds fun. see you at the coffee shop. ~ [my name here]

[Jen Ann]

Love this post! Grammar and spelling errors really bug me too, and I am glad to find out that I am not the only neurotic out there! I am most bothered by the whopping errors that I have seen in professional communicatins, where you would hope people would be a bit more competent.

[drsharky]

My two cents on this (and to add fuel to the fire):
First: there are TONS of grammar, spelling, and punctuation mistakes that students make with consistency that BUG THE HELL OUT OF ME.
+ you got the one on its (possessive) versus it's (it is). I cannot get through a single assignment without correcting this.
+ don't forget, language fans: a lot, like a little, is TWO WORDS.
+ has anyone else noticed the tendency recently for people to say "use to" or "suppose to" instead of the proper "used to" and "supposed to"?
+ there (location), they're (they are) and their (possessive) seem to confuse a lot of people.
+ everyday is an adjective meaning "common" or "usual" (as in "everyday occurrence" and every day (two words) depicts how frequently something happens.

Chele, what you are saying (and I use Chicago in my writing) is that either is acceptable. Editors at Chicago, however, want to see consistency, and they will not rule out something like "Harris'" as long as you use it throughout your work. But that raises the important point of doing something and sticking to it.
But, for my adding fuel to the fire, I think a lot of this comes from computers. Often students will tell me that "it looked good" or that they "didn't have time" to run a spell check. Come ON-- most word processing programs do it for you now! See the little green and red squigglies under the words or phrases? They are not just there for decoration! Take the hint and correct! Still, it seems to me that a lot of people think that if it is on a computer, it should be easier. Waaaaah. You still have to check your spelling and your grammar, as well as style. I will leave alone the vast overuse of "helping verbs" for someone else to rail on ("He was going to the store" instead of simply "he went to the store.")
Yours in clean writing,
s

[hippychick]

I don't think anyone's mentioned the one that bugs me MOST OF ALL:

your = belonging to you

you're = you are

!!!!!!!

Just had to get that in there!!

hippychick

[drsharky]

AAAAUUUUUUGH!!!
How could I have forgotten that one, hippychick?
And there is another one-- "apart" means separate, but "a part" designates inclusion in one community or group.
s

[pooh bear fan]

:ummm i actually think it should be "Mr Jones's car" as the original word already had the "s" at the end, so therefore to make it correct you add 's

[seniorpride]

Just have to throw my two cents in and say I agree with you "grammar queens" out there! :yay Grammar mistakes bug the HELL out of me. When I write papers for class, my composition or material may not always be perfect (:ugh) but my spelling and grammar always are! :muhaha Similarly, if I'm proofreading a paper for someone else, I always correct grammar mistakes over composition errors. Sad but true. :sarcasm This is one of my biggest pet peeves!

[aliss]

there's this GIGANTIC banner at this brewery i have to drive by almost daily saying "friday drink special's" and i am thinking "what kind of person would do that on a huge banner? and what cognitive process leads you to make that error? and nobody spots the error???"

i am serious. i work on language processing in the brain --- i just don't get how they think "drink special" gets an apostrophe... there is no explanation in entire psycholinguistic theory for that!!!

i'm not even going to start on the "youre" stuff or other mistakes college students make.

i'm sorry i just get carried away... *ahem* ... sorry...

a.

[aliss]

okay i said i wouldn't get carried away but...

i hate it when people say "cohortS" - when they mean a singular "cohort" (which consists of multiple people, yes, but that's its definition you don't mean multiple groups of multiple...)

grrrr...

and incident vs. incidence !!! get it right dammit!!!

and an all-time fave of mine among college students is using "for all intensive purposes" for "for all intents and purposes" :sarcasm

they make some of these mistakes on TV as they're reading the news --- no wonder people keep making these mistakes...

[Chele]

Okay, how about the pronounciation of jewelry--I keep hearing on the news about a joolry robbery--IT'S JEW-EL-RY NOT JOOL-RY!!! Geesh!!!

[Stephy]

For everyone, myself included

Although this doesn't apply to me, as it isn't my personal experience and I, too, am quite a grammar/spelling/etc queen, why don't we keep in mind that maybe not everyone else out there wants to be perfect? There are actually some people who don't obsess over such small things and don't feel the need to be perfect in all that they do. I, of course, can only wish for the day that I don't long to be perfect...

Maybe those people that email you, post anonymously on boards, write you letters or even write the product description on the backs of packages and annoy the hell out of you have a learning disability? Maybe they do the best they can do, which isn't perfect by someone else's standards, but is fine for them? Or maybe they just realize, that in the end, having your audience understand the message is far more important than how perfectly it is delivered to them.

[aliss]

:hugon stephy :hugoff

i understand what you're saying... i think you did a good thing by bringing this up.

i don't insist EVERYONE is perfect.

but i think people who write news stories should pay attention because people learn from that. people who write on any surface or publication the public will read should pay attention because people learn from those... whether or not you realize your brain is always picking up things...

furthermore, i am a grad student in one of the top universities in this country... my students do not know the difference between "your" and "you're" and refuse to learn to use proper english even when we correct them numerous times. i was not born in this country, or raised speaking english. i had to struggle many hardships in order to be able to go to school here. i don't think everyone should be perfect but it makes me mad to see that SO MANY OF these students do not see how fortunate they are that they can get this top-quality education. millions of people in the world would happily learn ten foreign languages to have these opportunities, yet they will refuse to learn to use their own language properly.

i don't think there is anythig wrong with having a learning disability or even having had a bad education early on in life... but i DO see people who are college students at a top school who simply do not care... i think this is unfair to the people who would die to be in that college and also to people with real learning disabilities.

i always defend america in discussions with foreigners when they complain about how little americans know because i know the education system here is not as good. but this is precisely where the change begins: with people who care about making the education better in the first place.

i guess this thread was all ranty and horrible but believe me underneath all that attitude i (and i am guessing many other :fishy too) truly don't mean to hurt anyone. i just really care about this...

thanks for raising the point and making me think though...

:love,

a.

[Stephy]

See, the thing is, I don't know about other countries or even other provinces (I'm in Canada) but our school system is getting worse and worse due to the screwed up Conservative party and their budgeting etc. Our classrooms are so full and our teachers, especially the elementary school teachers, are very overworked and have little help in the classroom with the large number of children. It's been this way for a while and it's easier to just pass the children through to the next grade than it is to hold them back and try to give them the skills they need. The result is students going from grade to grade without learning what they need to learn. Both of my parents are teachers and I've seen first-hand the situation in the schools as well as the general attitude of many of the children, they just don't care. My father gets students in his classes (high school) who don't know how to spell the days of the week and other words that they should know. These are basic skills but I don't think the people are at fault, especially not in the cases of billboards and articles, as there are editors who are to be checking things over. Another thing is that there are many styles and formats of writing, and many differ from each other but they are all still recognized as proper forms of writing. OK, I'm finished ranting. I feel like a bitch.

[aliss]

stephy,

don't feel like a bitch for defending your opinion. i think you're right that most of these individuals are not at fault. the situation is a general problem with education systems (public schools being really poor basically as a result of government policy - same problem in america...). however, there are individuals i have met who i think simply do not care to learn even though they are perfectly able to learn. i guess we shouldn't judge individuals who make these mistakes (and believe me i don't judge everyone i meet like this). i just think magazine/tv/book editors should at least care though... lately i have started to see these mistakes even in novels published by leading publisher, which are supposed to be carefully edited...

a.

[urbanfaerie]

Sometimes I have typos here...but I REALLY try not to.

My "hit list": (Borrowed from T. M. my Creative Writing Prof)
:bullet affect/effect
The direct effect of the hurricane was that public transportation was affected.

Couldn't find a non-lame sentence to use those.

an effect is the result of something
if you are unfortunate enough to experience a negative effect, you are affected.

I had a PRINCIPAL do that CONSTANTLY...not to mention her pronouncing "VOCABULARY" =vocaVulary....

RARRRRRR...and she wanted to proofread MY letters home??

There are lots of other nit picky things that I have. I don't judge people with learning disabilities, or a lack of education. However, it is rather annoying when someone who is PAID to have excellent grammar makes careless errors, or a person with a very high level of education makes errors.

This is from the girl who in college would proofread the Cardinal Points with a highlighter and drink water to sober up after a night out.

heather
p.s. I admit to sentence fragments(hey, it was good enough for Hemmingway!), and the occasional spelling error...damn SF for not having a spell checker. I even proof read my E-mail! No flames for errors tonight please! It is the middle of the night.:winky

[Chele]

How 'bout "I could care less . . . " Shouldn't it be, "I couldn't care less . . . ?"

[Rora]

Alright... my two cents on this thing...

My family surname is Evans.
We are the Evans Family.
We are also the Evanses (as a collective group)
The family car is the Evans's car
if something is mine, I say "The book/toothbrush/wallet/etc is AuroraRose Evans'."

I am not a collective owner of "Evan's Car" or "Evans' Car", nor am I a member of the "Evans' Family"XXXXX

Do I have this correct?




Ooh! I wanna throw my pet peeve in here... :snowman
People who say "wolf" the same way they say "woof"
(ESPECIALLY lawyer ads on tv:
"After I got into a car accident, I called Mr. Woof and associates and got thirty thousand dollars.") :sarcasm

-AuroraRose