women's titles

[infinitepiphany]

hey fishies :)

i was thinking in class today about the nomenclature of women. when i brought it up with brian, he suggested i post a thread about it.

i am irritated that men are referred to as "mr." from the moment they are born until they die. women, however, are subject to three different titles: "miss," "ms.", and "mrs." though many aregue with me, the term "miss" connates youth, innocence, and childhood, while ms. and mrs. connotate adulthood. when in college, i began taking the ms. title, thought i frequently argued with people regarding my divorced status...they seemed to think i was, despite my blunt claim otherwise.

i want to know why my marital status is anyone's business. why is my identity so linked to my marital status? why is any woman's? are we somehow more or less important, educated, viable to society, the business feild, or acadamia because of it? notice that a woman with a doctorate or md is "dr" regardless of marital status.

ironically, i did take brian's name without qualm, though in high school and early college i would have refused. i like my new name, now. im proud of it :)

opinions? anyone?

michelle scates
(aka piff)

[Vicks]

Today I was haivng a conversation with this woman I work with who is in her early twenties I am in my mid twenties. Anyway, her job is to write thank you letters to people who give us donations. (I do fundraising) I acutally use to do her job, but anyway, she kept wanting to write "Mr. and Mrs. Sarah Sheldon" instead of "Mr. and Mrs. David Sheldon" I admire her beliefs, but I honestly do not feel that it is what causes women's self esteem to become shattered. If a woman is a doctor and she is married to a regular guy the tittle would go "Dr. and Mr. Sarah Sheldon" or "Dr. Sarah Sheldon and Mr. David Sheldon" I think tittle in all realtiy to mean something.

I wnat to be a social worker because I do wnat the little tittle after my name, but as far as "tittles" affecting how we feel I don't really think it is that significant. I have absoultely no problem taking my fiance's last name, nor do I have any problem giving up my maiden name, nor being called "Mrs. ______" I guess for me it ins't such a huge issue. I know others it is. But I would like to hope that women aren't so fragile to let a thing like "Miss." get them all upset. I mean the equivalent for a young man is "master" but I odn't consider a kid to be a master at all and "Miss." to me just signifies a person unmarried. And in reality some people really get offended if you don't address them appropriately. I have people call and say "Dont' you know I am married!"

It is all in perspective.

Vicks

[infinitepiphany]

vicks -

in so many ways, i couldnt care less about what feminists refer to as (something along the lines of) linguistic repression. things like "seminar" or "person." i mean, if you chase those words down in the oxford exnglish dictionary (its like an excyclopedia....multiple volumes....tells the word's history) youd find that the happenstance of "semen" or "son" in the words is unrelated to the inequalities (past or present) of women.

however, im pretty sure that the need for miss/mrs refers back to the day when a woman was her father's daughter until she became her husband's wife. ie - victorian era. and its this left over linguistic reference to a time when women were essential property.

and, really, i think that needs to change. i may be the only person in the whole world, but i really think that all women and girls should be titled by one title (as the men are all mr.), i think we should all be ms. (or something).

just a thought. i know i may be alone in this. im not much of a feminist, so i dont keep up with the writings of feminists, so i dont even know if the feminists care, even. i should find out...

michelle

[pageling]

:hugon Michelle :hugoff

I just wanted to tell you that I hear what you're saying and I agree with you! I don't see why it would be any big deal for all women to be "ms." and that's what I use. Of course, my last name is a hyphenate (my last name and my husband's last name joined by a hyphen), so most people can figure out I'm married. But I'm not doing that to hide the fact that I'm married. It just seemed like the easiest thing to do. But I do know lots of women who couldn't wait to have a "Mrs." after their name.

Of course, I"m also the person who, as a little girl, just didn't think it was fair or made sense that men could be names after their father's and have a "Jr." after their name and women couldn't, so I don't know if you want to listen to me or not! :winky Anyway, that's just my two cents. Thanks for bringing this up. You've got some good thoughts on the subject.

much :love,
paige

[fimbriae]

i find it entirely inappropriate that a woman's age and marital status are denoted by the use of "miss" and "mrs". i refer to myself as Ms, as i don't see that my marital status or perceived age should be public knowledge.

take care.

:love, emma

[drsharky]

On this one, I have to say I push for a more egalitarian wording.
I live and work pretty far South (in Texas), where "Sir" and "Ma'am" is often common usage. Now, I'm willing to go along with that, but along with those respectful connotations, many of my students insert what I feel is totally disrespectful. As in "Miss Heath (or Mrs. Heath), DR. Smith told me I should come talk to you." When I ask them why it's Dr. X but I'm Mrs., Miss, or whatever, they say, "Oh, I was just trying to show you respect." Now to me, calling me "Dr." (because I do have a Ph. D.) would be showing more respect than calling me "Miss" or "Mrs."
And, to top it off, since I am a lesbian, I often tell students that "Mrs. Heath is my mother." I am trying to be funny, but reminding them in essence that my marital status is really not relevant to my status as an instructor here. They should call me what they call everyone else here. Period. Just like people should call you whatever you prefer to be called. Period.
That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.
s

[infinitepiphany]

dr sharky -

as a college student in texas, i totally know what you mean about the sir/ma'am thing. what do you think of miss? ive always thought it referenced a young girl, and found it irritating when people called me that - especially the kids a my internships (i have a NAME, thank you). in addition, most prof's do have a ph.d...i always assume a prof has one until told otherwise...im surprised to learn other students dont. interesting.

michelle

[snookums]

Yes, I think titles reveal a lot.

I am fully nauseated by titles like Jane Smith who is married to Bob Smith, and goes by "Mrs. Bob Smith". Like, what the fuck? Her name isn't really Bob now, is it?

Women as property of their husbands. FEH!

Now, I'm a lesbian, and the country I live in doesn't allow me to legally marry - only "certain people" in my country have that special :sly right. So I can't say too much about name changes after marriage, because I've never faced the situation personally.

In some ways, I think it'd be nice to have the same name as my spouse (if I ever get one), cuz it would emphasize and affirm our relationship in some way. Though realistically, I can't imagine ever changing my name except for under one circumstance: and that is, if I simply did not like my name, I would change it!

Here's some good trivia for ya - I'm a physician, and female obviously. And on more than one occasion, I have had patients whom I know to respect me very much, introduce me to, say, their spouse, in this way: "This is my doctor, MRS. Snookums."

Yep, that's right. Not Dr. Snookums, but Mrs. Snookums.

Uh ....... NEWS FLASH! Would they introduce their MALE doctor, Dr. Smith, as *Mr.* Smith? Not.

See .... a woman (even if she performs a "man's" job, like I do every day), is STILL first and foremost, a woman. Hmmm...

Anyway, I know they mean no harm. It does not indicate that they respect me any less simply because I have ovaries. Rather, it speaks volumes about ingrained patterns that are reflected in our choice of language.

Subvert the dominant paridigm!

[Jen]

Hola :bowl!

Interesting topic....I'm engaged and although I haven't thought about it much I'll most likely use Chris' last name after we're married. I can't quite see being Mrs. anyone and have somehow managed to escape the whole Ms/Miss debacle and just be Jen.

A point to ponder....when my older sister got married a little over two years ago was already an EM physician and Dr _________. She kept her maiden name professionally, I think more for practical reasons (in the state she lives and practices in using her husbands name professionally would require a fair amount of paperwork as her diploma, and her medical license have her maiden name and she took all of her board exams obviously using her maiden name. Additionally her husband is also a physician (he's a surgeon) so it might just be confusing if there were two Dr. ___________). So what name and title should she use socially. This is actually sort of a serious question as it's something most of her husband's colleagues wives have yet to figure out. She however is going on with her life and being Giana!

:love,
Jen :bear

[drsharky]

Hi all--
Infinite, I feel the same way about "Miss" that you seem to (that it refers to younger unmarried girls and women). I called someone on that once, and they claimed they were using "Ms." Go figure...
On the names thing, my sister changed her name at marriage simply because she liked her husband's name better than our last name (she claims his is easier to sign). Oh, for the little things, huh? But she uses her first, maiden, and "new" last name on all business communication. Whatever works for you, like I said before.
At the university where I work, staff frequently update communications materials and ask how I would like materials addressed to me. Then they have a separate area where you fill out how you would like invitations addressed to you, and if you have a spouse or partner, how you would like that person included. So, people can say "Professor and Mrs. Smith" or "Doctor and Mr. Jones" or "Doctor Brown and Ms. Dyke Partner." Mine is in the last category, but you can use endless variations according to personal preference and I like that.
Just my two cents.
s

[lexy*]

:hugon:bowl:hugoff

I do not plan to take my husband's last name when/if I get married. My mom kept her maiden name, and my parents even considered what last name my brother and I should have, though in the end, I do have my dad's last name, simply because it would be confusing if my twin brother and I A) had different last names or B) took my mom's last name. I respect my mom's decision to keep her last name, and I will do the same.

Alexis