Pledge of Allegiance Ruled Unconstitutional

[SavingSelf]

My :usa heart is breaking today, this is the last thing our country needed. If it stands, the pledge can no longer be recited in affected public schools.

The ruling (be a federal appeals court covering nine states) is because it violates separation of church (religion) and state and endorses religion. I've always believed this to be true but it never stopped me from reciting it. I always hoped I would never see this day come but always afraid because it will probably snowball across the country We're destroying a tradition and the American Dream.

How do you other :usa feel? I'm so sad today.

Karley

[ajia]

:hugon karley :hugoff

i totally support the ruling; it is unconstitutional & shouldn't be mandatory (as it was when i was in school). not only that, but it's not an official document or anything. it was taken from a children's nursery rhyme(sp?).

:peace :love

[infinitepiphany]

i think it is unconconstitutional, and have since i was a kid. it seems so obvious. . . "one nation under God". . . yet we have freedom of religion? or atheism? not to mention, i know Jews, Christians, and Wiccan refer to God as God, but what about Muslims (Allah) and Wicca (the Goddess) and other religions i cant think of at present. or buddhism, which is atheistic. or atheists.

i dearly treasure my freedom to be a christian. by allowing govt to uphold any religion, including mine, in anything, i allow them to infringe on the freedom aspect of it. if they can do that, they can also require me to particiapte in other small - or large - ways.

michelle

[Celeste]

I wholeheartedly support the ruling. I think the Pledge is unconstitutional and always have. Thank goodness I was homeschooled and never had to say it, otherwise there'd have been lots of trouble at my school. :sarcasm

[SavingSelf]

I thought maybe more people would reply to this post, since it's all over the news.

I think the pledge is unconsitutional too and always have. What worried me about this is the implications -- our currency has religious references; our legal system requires us to make an oath on the bible when we testify in a court of law, and I'm sure the list goes on. This isn't the potential end, it's only the beginning as I see it. I heard on the news today that Congress will challenge the ruling in addition to the Attorney Gen. department in at least one of the states. I'm grateful for that.

I think what the bottom line is most troubling to me is as my husband and I discussed... to me, the reference to god in the pledge is just words and as superificial as Christmas has become to many people. We, as a nation, have the largest shopping season of the year that is based on a religious holiday although many of us have long lost sight of the true meaning of Christmas.

As I look at our current events and especially after Sept. eleventh, I can see how our enemies look at us as laugh. I think we're becoming way too much of "minority rules" when decision making is done rather than majority... one person who happens to be an athiest was able to change some fundamental in my life and upbringing that provided me a sense of belonging to a unified nation. In my eyes it's a tragedy that it's gone. Maybe I look too deeply into this, but everyday I look around and wonder what has happened to the social fiber of our country and this, as I see it, is another explanation.

KArley

[lovtophish]

I also agree that the ruling is unconstitutional. But, like :hugon Karley :hugoff I grew up w/the pledge and did find some unity in it. Maybe we should just change the wording...."one nation united" or something like that???

Steph

[angelgirl]

:usa
It makes me very :sad to see something that unifies this country called unconstitutional. I do see the problems with the seperation of Church and state, but if this becomes an issue. What about having "In God We Trust" on our currency or the oath on the Bible? How come after September eleven, the nation was covered by banners saying God bless America. But we must also remember that the Pledge did not orignally have "under God" in it. So maybe we will return to the orginal, I know if that is the case I will always add the "under God" back in. But this country was started by those that believed in God, and now that isn't the only religion around anymore so changes will happen. I just think it's sad to change something that is such a tradition now.
:usa

:love
angelgirl

[lovtophish]

hmmm....an interesting fact I learned from my English teacher. It's in a book "********,************ things you weren't taught in History" or something like that. Neither Jefferson or Washington were Christians...they only claimed to acknowledge a God...which one?...that was never specified.

Steph

[arcLA]

:usa :usa :usa

I am actually very disturbed by this, although the "under God" line actually is unconstitutional. It was only added in the Nineteen Fifty's, so I don't see why we just don't take it out, and then make the pledge mandatory again.

I think that if this is going to be the way things are, we need to reprint all of our money to take "god" off, stop using taxpayer dollars to give vouchers to students studying in religious schools, and stop using Federal Pell grants for Private religious schools. The separation between church and state is blurred right now, and will continue to be with our current President, as his reaction to all of this is "I will make sure to appoint a Supreme Court Justice who will overturn this...." WHAT?!


lisa :love :usa

[cremina]

Im not sure where i stand on this just yet need more time to contemplate.....but i dont think its wrong to say
" one nation under god"
whatever beleif system you follow there is some sort of higher being.....the poem does not specify specific goods...like jesus or buddha. It simply states one nation under god......and there are many differnt forms and types....At least thats what i think?
:love cremina

[juliaf]

For me saying the pledge was as routine as saying hail marys and our fathers before school started. I never deeply reflected on the words of any of it. I remembered the pledge being controversial (i think with the jehova witnesses) years ago when i was in school. In most schools i have taught at or attended it has been optional as to whether you wanted to say it or not. Many say it goes against the constitution, but what doesn't anymore? In my opinion, the constitution was thrown out in the fifties when the national security of the state was implemented. Many people buy into the presidents facade of being a "down to earth guy", but what down to earth guy do you know who can raise twenty-five million dollars to run for the presidency? I think this country is not unlike many others in that the "rich is getting richer and the poor is getting poorer"... I don't buy the part that claims "liberty and justice for all." I lost a lot of my respect for this country when i entered the military and saw first hand how our goverment works and how they lie to people. In training i saw this when my upper class got commisioned...if you had a general coming to commision you, you got to be commisioned in the auditorium (a very elegant room), but if not you were commisioned by a captian in the day room of your dorm (which i might add is pretty nasty). Our government likes to portray itself as being upstanding and doing right....Like many political theorist say..."Three of the Four super powers of the past century have fallen...America is getting closer everyday and will one day inevitably fall too."
I kind of went off on a rant. sorry. just something to think about.
~julia

[Meister]

Dear Fishys,

I enjoy reading all of your posts regarding this issue.
I would just like to respectfully add three things to the discussion if I may.
*gets out soap box*
:grin

As a child of adamantly athiest parents, I always thought it was strange that the word 'God' was uttered in school. My parents did not impose their views on me, but due to my environment growing up, I knew from a very early age that 'God' was NOT mentioned in school (or at my home).

I do not feel damaged by saying 'under God' when reciting the pledge. Nor did I feel coerced or forced to believe in God because of saying the Pledge of Allegiance. I thought the Pledge was a compulsary duty just like everything else we had to do in school.

Next....Ok, I'm just paraphrasing as I understand this so it may not be completely accurate....:happy
If anyone has more information on this, I'd be glad to hear it.

....I just learned today that 'under God' was added during the McCarthy Era in the Nineteen Fifties. The logic behind this was that a Communist would never say 'Under God' while saying the pledge because Communists don't believe in God. Therefore, they would be easily 'spotted' and 'discovered'.
(:sarcasm yeah, great detective work, boys!:sarcasm)

Although I may not have the info correct, I definately know that many lives were ruined by being unfairly 'blacklisted' during that time and many people had a deep fear of becoming 'blacklisted' themselves-which is probably why the population complied with the extra line of 'under God'.


I don't like the line 'under God' not because of any religious implications, but because the intention behind adding this line in the first place. It just seems so manipulative and controlling and disturbing.


To insure the separation between church and state, why not just remove the line, 'under God' and leave the rest of the pledge intact.

As for swearing in before court (do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me God) or the motto 'In God we trust' on our currency...these don't disturb me because
I don't think the word 'god' has to represent a spiritual being. God can be the miricle of science, the universe, why flowers bloom in the springtime etc.


Just one last thought........


Do I think there is 'Liberty and Justice for all" ?no, I don't. I view the Pledge of Allegiance as a way to unite Americans regardless of opinions, class, race, backgound, creed, and religion etc.

The Pledge of Allegiance is one of the few things that all Americans have in common. A child from Minnesota can be very different from a child from Louisiana or New York because of local social/culture factors, but they'll both know 'The Pledge'.

Nothing wrong with a little all-inclusive unity, therefore, I choose the say The Pledge, and respect the opinions of those who do not.

*puts away soap box* :silly


To Juliaf:
two things,
:bounceMy sister was in the military and told me a lot about the attrocities that goes on in the military (dreadful mispending and sexual harassment to name a few-*shudder*)
:bounce Thank you for serving in the military. Just wanted to recognize that it takes a special kind to serve (and I ain't one of them) like that.

[juliaf]

Meister
~i enjoyed reading your views. I like the part about kids from all over having one thing in common :winky
~about the military...can't take credit for serving because i ended up dropping out of officer school so i never actually served per se because i was only in eight months and you have to do one hundred and twenty days before they consider you serving...I apparently i ain't one of them either :sarcasm , but i do respect those that serve
~julia

[QofC]

C:bearG :usa supports the ruling.
The pledge did not used to have the words "under God" in it...
:idea Why can't we go back to that? -- we would still be patriotic and teaching our children to support this nation and at the same time supporting what this country stands for: religious freedom.

C:bearG is an athiest...
I am all for saying the pledge but there is no reason to bring religion or God into it...
To not make it mandatory does no good b/c children feel obligated to participate -- kids are cruel!

And just to end with a funny thought
(that contradicts everything I stand for but it's still funny :muhaha)...
As long as there are tests, there will always be prayer in school. :winky

[nla-one]

I'm not sure I really understand this ruling. I was always under the impression that in public school, you can not make someone practice religion or try to make them believe what you do. But we talking about one word here. :ohboy The pledge isn't asking you to believe in christianity or make you practice it. It's just a pledge/song with the word God in it. There are lots of times in school when the word God will be mentioned. It's inevitable. God is a part of history - a part of a lot of things and the word will be mentioned in other places in school as well. Will they start banning those instances as well?

[lovtophish]

Francis Bellamy (), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August eighteen ninety two. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the
American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward and Equality. Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned
economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September eighth issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in eighteen hundred and ninety one as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In eighteen hundred and ninety two Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its
chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in eighteen hundred and ninety two. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with
liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, eighteen hundred and ninety two. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the
American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and
'equality.'

In nineteen hundred and twenty three and nineteen hundred and twenty four the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.'
Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In nineteen hundred and fifty four, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath
and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change.
He had been pressured into leaving his church in eighteen hundred and ninety one because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church
because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

Thought you all might be interested.

Steph

[jesla]

I feel very :sad about this ruling. As a Christian, i have lots of opinions on this, but i'll just put my feelings here. I am just :sad. I'm a teacher, and a Christian, and I like the Pledge, and I like having the words "under God" in it.

[MonStar]

this is very interesting to me, being australian, God doesnt play much in the lives or thoughts of people in our nation. i was in the usa a few days after NY in sept last yr. i noticed the unity as a nation in prayer and belief, to me it was very interesting to see an open belief in God, i found it very comforting actually. i know not everyone believes in a Christian God, but removing all things that are related to God in the usa in someways isnt that revolting against what your forefathers were searching for in the new country away from england? though i know the pledge wasnt institued by them.......i would be really curious what the UK fishies think about their national song "God Save The Queen"
heck in aussie waltz sing matilda is a song of national pride, its about a guy that was a thief ran from the police was an alcoholic and then committed suicide.....then again we come from convicts so maybe its not so suprising, funny how the history of a nation shines thru generations later.....'the pledge' to me doesnt seem so bad compared to that.

[Chimera]

I am not particularly religious, but this ruling does sadden me. I think that "In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God" are a part of our country's heritage, and it saddens me that they are being stripped away by the courts. In most schools, children are not required to recite the pledge in school as long as they are respectful of the others who do. I also worry about the larger implications of the ruling...are we going to do away with the phrase "In God We Trust" on our currency as well? As much as it angers people, this country was founded by mostly Christian men, and the Christian beliefs were very, very prevalent in our culture up until the last fourty years or so. I think that it is a shame to try and erase and eliminate those elements of our history and heritage.

[ajia]

:hugon :fishys :hugoff

this may be the beginning of a whole other post, but there was something that i wanted to bring up in light of some of the responses. first, i'd like to say i'll try not to get on my soap-box too much & keep this brief.

i notice a lot of responses speak about the christian founders of america & the american culture, etc. i'm sorry, but these so-called "founders", were anything but. they were not the saints that history books have portrayed them as; far from. as far as the "american culture" goes, that's an oximoron(sp?). there is no such thing. with rare exceptions, everything that we have come to associate as a part of the american culture, was taken from another culture. even our beloved statue of liberty (a gift from france).

this ruling has nothing to do with cutting the core of america's religious foundation or it's culture. you can't cut the core of something that doesn't exist.

i mean no disrespect to anyone or their religion. i apologise if my opinons have offended anyone, but truth is truth.

:peace :love

[lovtophish]

ajia


I COMPLETELY agree with you. I've had discussions with a lot of people about this subject. The argument I hear most is that it's part of our culture, it's part of our history, why not leave it alone. So was slavery, so was the oppression of blacks and women. My dad told me that this is a majority rules country and the minority should deal with it. If that's the case then black people would still be sitting at the back of the bus and women would not be allowed to work or vote. Americans started out in this country by trying to control other people (indians), taking away their lands, and declaring that we were better. That's NOT the heritage I will want my children to show respect to.

on another note, some schools don't make you "say" the pledge, but how would you feel as the child that doesn't stand for the pledge...that opens you up for alienation just because of your religious beliefs. It's tough enough being a kid in school, but to have to deal with being "different" because of your religious beliefs isn't fair.

Steph

[GlorytoGod]

I have just a bunch of rambling thoughts about this issue. As you may have already figured out from my name, I do believe in the use of the word "God."

:usa As a student in elementary school, we said the Pledge every day, in an "assembly" (big meeting with all two hundred fifty students in our pod for fifteen minutes). Teachers didn't care if you said it or didn't, they just cared if you were jumping around or flailing your arms bumping into another student.) Maybe what could have been done is to talk a bit about the rights of people to NOT say the Pledge, tying it into the first ammendment "Freedom of Speech" right.

:usa As a substitute teacher in elementary schools that don't say the Pledge...I see a general disrespect of authority among students. Do I believe that saying the Pledge would change all the disrespectful thoughts and behaviors? Of course not. It might not even change anything. But acknowledgement that there is something bigger out in the universe, whatever "god" it may be, is something that I believe helps in the respect factor.

:usa One of my professors in college said something that really stuck with me. The ammendment calls for "Separation of Church and State, not separation of Religion and Government." Religion and government are both ideologies. The ammendment is saying that the government can't endorse any particular religion. Saying the Pledge does not specify what god is being prayed to.

:usa There are plenty of times that Christian (and other religious) students are taught things that don't coincide with their values. For example, the "scientific" concept of evolution, or the "safe sex" method of preventing pregnancy or disease. Is it my duty as a Christian parent to try to outlaw these teachings, because I think the State is trying to endorse atheistic teachings? No. It is my duty to talk to my child about our values, how they differ from what the schools teach, and why we believe what we believe. If I honestly can't handle that, then I need to make arrangements with my child--not with the federal government, state, school district, or even school--to find other educational options.

(For the record, I don't have any children yet!)

I've gone way off tangent here, and I apologize for that, but I think one of the things that really needs to be addressed is that parents need to be more involved with their children's lives. We can't expect schools to do all the parenting, to be the only source of our children's education, and then get upset when the government doesn't meet our particular belief system. We need to take responsibility for teaching our children what we believe, compare it to the worldview of the school, culture, whatever, and be willing to take responsibility.

Interesting discussion!

~Becca

[Freaky Deaky]

I really hope not to offend anyone. I am terrible at this depate thing because I am very very opinionated.

I APOLOGIZE BEFOREHAND!

First--there is no separation of church and state anywhere in the constitution. That there should be a wall of separation between the two is somehting Jefferson wrote somewhere.
HOWEVER--the very first change to the constitution states that congress will not make any laws respecting any religion, or prohibit the exercise of any religion.

Therefore--if the students are not forced to say the pledge, then there isn't anything unconstitutional about it.

MAJORITY should rule. check out the results of the latest census--there are more women. WE ARE THE MAJORITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 'IN GOD WE TRUST', 'SO HELP ME GOD', and 'UNDER GOD' are all because CHRISTIANS ARE THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY.



I respect that not every one is a white christian female. I respect the fact that it may bother some people to have to feel oppressed because God is mentioned in The Pledge.

IF IT WILL MAKE THIS COUNTRY HAVE MORE PRIDE, COMING TOGETHER WITH SOMETHING THAT RESEMBLES NATIONALISM--THEN BY GOD, TAKE OUT THAT OFFENSIVE CLAUSE.

somehow I don't think it will make a damn bit of difference to anyone younger than twenty five.

[drsharky]

I am older than twenty-five, I am a United States historian, and:
** What the nation's founders said or didn't say is partly irrelevant. The pledge was not written until LONG after they died. What the founders did agree on was that there should be no governmental impositions regarding a person's faith or the practice thereof, and they thought that the government should not appear to endorse any particular faith.
** The pledge also has been altered over time. The phrase "under God" was not instituted because a majority of people were Christian. It was included first in ****************, at a time when the nation's leaders believed that adding the phrase "under God" would help to underscore the differences between MANY (but not all) Americans and the Soviet Union. So it was a product of the Cold War, but did not have anything immediately to do with who was or was not a Christian (though I would concede that it was a related issue, just not the main one). However, on that note...
** I question whether a majority of people are Christian-- and I say this at the risk of offending some here, although I do not mean to. It's not meant to suggest that any person is not really a person of faith. However, of the many people I know who say that they are Christian, many cannot agree on various aspects of our faith, and many others who say that they are Christian do not attend church regularly. It makes me question how devout they are in their faith or why they consider themselves Christian if they do not reinforce their faith with attendance at church. And if being Christian is supposed to symbolize unity and diversity among the many forms of belief in this country, then what really does "under God" mean? I present this in all seriousness. There are such differences of opinion on the subject that it seems odd to insert a phrase that suggests such uniformity of belief on a subject that we clearly don't have a uniform concept of.
Just a note to get pieces of the historical record straight! :winky
s

[drsharky]

sorry-- the number was nineteen fifty-four.

[Freaky Deaky]

I'm sorry to have started ranting.

I am just sad.

I hope that the new, improved, and politically correct Pledge will mean something to the children who will be forced to recite it a the beginning of every school day.

[drsharky]

OK, I'll bite....
"politically correct"???? What does THAT mean?
And "forced"? If they are "forced" now, why were other children not "forced" to say it (with "under God") before?
PT Barnum-- you can't please all the people all of the time... boy is that seeming to come true!

[Freaky Deaky]

I thought 'politically correct' was a euphemism for 'doesn't piss anybody off'.

When I was in elementary and middle school we were expected to say the Pledge--or at least maintain some respect while everyone else did.
I think when most of us were reciting, we were doing just that--reciting. Nothing more. It didn't really mean anything to me or any classmates in any of the schools I've attended or taught.

I'm sure that with the court's ruling children will definitely be expected to recite the Pledge as there is nothing controversial now.

I can not argue that the word GOD has to be in the Pledge. THAT IS NOT MY POINT AT ALL.

With or without the offensive clause, I hope the Pledge becomes something meaningful to all who say it.

[snookums]

Freaky Deaky, I'm confused by what you said:

>MAJORITY should rule. check out the results of the latest census--there are more women. WE ARE THE MAJORITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because there are (barely) more women then men in America, how does this (or does it) relate to the Pledge?

> The 'IN GOD WE TRUST', 'SO HELP ME GOD', and 'UNDER GOD' are all because CHRISTIANS ARE THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

I'm not sure I understand under what circumstances you are saying the "majority" should rule. Appelate Court and Supreme Court decisions do not necessarily represent or have to represent the beliefs of the majority of Americans.

And as far as Christians being the majority in this country ... are they? I honestly don't know ... and Christianity is so diverse, I can't believe there is "one" unifying belief system among Christians. I mean, Southern Baptists tend to hold very different views compared to those belonging to the Metropolitan Community Church compared to Episcopalians, etc.

There is such an influx of people from other countries and cultures into the United States. And there always has been. I find it very difficult to characterize the U.S. as a "Christian" nation, primarily cuz I think it ignores the multitudes of Americans who aren't of the Christian persuasion.

[Vanna]

Well...

This topic makes me crazy mad so I'll just say a couple of things...this country is falling apart. I find it really ironic that the little girl that was "forced" to say this pledge is a Christian. I think it is sick that this father used his daughter as a pawn to push his own agenda.

I wish they would leave "one nation, under God" in the pledge but I doubt it will happen. :sad This is a nation where recently a woman was about to commit suicide by jumping off of a bridge and the commuters were encouraging her to just do it, so they could continue on their way without interuption. So yes, by all means, remove God more from our country! It is a sad, sad state of affairs.

This is why I am saving every penny I have to send my child to a private Christian school. I pray everyday that school vouchers pass legislation and are available in my area, so I can send my child to a school where this is still "one nation under God".

Grace

[snookums]

Gracey,

I, too, share your concern that the United States is going down the crapper. I'm sometimes floored by the lack of honesty, compassion and integrity I see among many (thankfully, not all!) people.

However, I don't see this being related to loss of religion. The United States still remains a fairly religious nation (and yes, this depends on one's definition.) But in opinion polls (if ya place any faith in those :winky), people seem to consistently indicate they believe in some sort of God or Higher Power.

It seems like a couple of posts here have equated morality or "goodness" with religion, and I differ with this belief. I don't think religious faith breeds morality, nor do I believe morality is dependent on being religious in any way.

Though I personally think that our society is becoming ruder and dumber and crueler, I can't say that this is due to any broad Loss of Religion. I think many factors go into it.

I myself, lean more towards a belief system that does not include a Higher Power. Though it seems to me that many people become more spiritual as they age, I believe I have become less so. However, I take pride in the fact that I behave, for the most part, very ethically and morally (and this is all relative, I know. My "morals" and what I value as important are not nessarily someone else's "morals".)

However, I do abide by what I call the basic stuff - like honesty, altruism and service to others. (Sorry, sounds corny.) I don't believe for one second that my efforts at leading a good life are in anyway diminished by the fact that I lean towards atheism. I know that somewhere, somehow there is somebody out there who would say that I can never truly live a good, moral life because of my lack of religious beliefs.

But then again, there are those who'd say I can't live a good and honest existence because I'm a lesbian. Feh. Who cares. I can only live by my own standards and values, not others.

I wish for this nation to be united under truthfullness, kindness and togetherness. Though I'm not actually referring to my feelings on the Pledge (because I have mixed feelings), I don't think that this country has to be One Nation Under God.

[Vanna]

:hugon Snookums :hugoff

Thank you for your response. You were much more tolerant than I was. I appologize for that...I told you all this topic makes me crazy mad. :shy

I guess in my mind I do equate Christianity to morality to a degree but only because that is the way it works for me. I'm not saying that people of different religions can't be good or people of no religion are amoral. I should have stated that better but in my life I became a better, moral person because I found Jesus.

"However, I do abide by what I call the basic stuff - like honesty, altruism and service to others. (Sorry, sounds corny.)"-Snookums

No, it doesn't sound corny...it sounds refreshing and wonderful. :cheesy

I feel strongly that "under God" should remain but I can see why other people do not. I just hope that this country can find some positive source of unity or we will surely fall apart.

Grace

[snookums]

:hugon gracey :hugoff

:yay

[MentalElemental]

Personally, I think the reason that this country is having such difficulty is because our society has grown to value business (money) over family. Cell phones and laptops .. we're expected to be able to work anytime, anywhere. Many homes are two income households, some because they want to be and others because they have to be. Businesses expect too much from their employees--just putting in your eight hours is not enough. You'll get passed over for promotions, raises, etc. Vacation time is cut shorter and shorter and what they allow for maternity leave is a joke. And you better be bleeding out your eyes if you need to take any significant sick time. The message is that our needs are not important; all that matters is the almighty dollar.

Of course kids are growing up wild. They're latch-key children being raised by television. Saying the Pledge isn't going to get them under control.

Before anyone starts to yell, I'm not saying 'The mother needs to be put back into the home!'; I'm saying that A parent, be it mother or father, should have the ability to be home with the kids. The way society is now, even if you want to do that, it's very difficult (sometimes impossible) to do so.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Freaky Deaky]

d'oh!

[Freaky Deaky]

Talking about this subject to my girl friend Reggie I said, "I think 'under God' is a catch all--you know, 'under a higher power' sounds kinda funny."
She says, "more like 'under Big Brother' just doesn't have a nice ring to it."

I thought that was hilarious.

P.S.--Please forgive me for having been irrational, irreverant, irrelevant, illogical, or even ridiculous. I am pregnant (four months) and hormones, nausea, and just plain being uncomfortable has made me lose all sense of reason.

I love you all so much!!!!

The Freakster

[Meister]

Dr Sharky-
Thank you for the clarification regarding the inclusion of the phrase, 'under God'.

FreakyDeaky-Congradulations!

Take care, y'all
Meister

[SuperFurryAnimal]

So George Bush doesn't like something that is ruled unconstitutional and therefore decides to appoint a Supreme Court in order to overturn this? Am I correct in taking this statement as true? If so then surely George has a case to answer to that his own emotional and personal issues have led to specific political actions based on his own personal feelings rather than the good of the American people. Clang up yer dollars, I see a legal interest ensuing…

I doubt the notion of George as a down to earth guy. Few down to earth people can claim to have an ex-President for a father. The gap between rich and poor is increasing throughout the world. Check out the current situation in China where people are able to buy British Bentleys for seven hundred thousand pounds despite the national average income being seven hundred pounds. The criteria to met the British Rich List has increased tremendously in new circles, away from the inherited wealth field and into the nouveaux rich field instead.

The use of God within the pledge is interesting. I don't claim to be an expert on American history and the way of life but in Britain I always felt uneasy with the placing of Christianity into schools. I don't care if it is the majority religion in this country, why should it be the de facto choice? Manchester United are the most supported football team here but I'm not wearing their colours.

A superpower falls, one will rise to take its place. As for my country's national anthem, it's slow, tedious and nowhere near as thrilling as the national anthem of Uruguay. Rule Britannia is far more effervescent.

Well Mental E, if you live by the capitalist sword then one day you'll get cut by it. London's much the same, the relentless pursuit of the pound. Money clouds judgement, money clouds morality. Enron, Cheney, Bush, Ed Kozlowski of Tyco… there's a few select people with their hands in a particularly large pot. Some of them might resist, others take a little handful, others dive in and lie there.

If the USA is truly united then does it need the banner of God placed above its allegiance? Isn't obedience, respect and loyalty to the Star Spangled Banner and a determination to do the best for your country enough? I do question why there is a fear about the separation of church and state. In the UK the Queen has a fair amount of political power for someone who has never been democratically elected to her lofty position. Why is it felt necessary that the church plays such a part in power? One thinks back to the anti-Semite known to the world as Richard Nixon and his close relationship with the cute and cuddly Rev Billy Graham. If that's the sort of state-church interaction that would be lost then I think most people would be waving it away with a cheery gesture.

If it's a shame to lose it because it was a tradition... so was lynching persons of an ethnic origin. I'm quite happy to have never been sent up a chimney as a boy or forced to work in a child labour sweat shop.

God eh? Such an emotive issue… time for some nice biscuits.

Andy

[Celeste]

this may sound blasphemous at first, but please try to hear what my message is.

why should i have to support (in the patriotic sense) a country that is not supporting me? america makes me sick. i was talking to a girl from ireland who came over for the summer to work who wound up getting a job at the same place i worked last night, and we were comparing the differences between educational systems. she has just finished her four-year degree in accounting-- she has no debts and no school loans.

i'm a smart girl-- i have a four point oh gpa and i am quaking in my boots hoping i'll be able to afford to finish my education because of the oppressive cost. the government of the usa is spending prohibitive amounts on national security and education is becoming more and more expensive by the day, while the public schools here in chicago get worse and worse.

i worked forty hours a week at a job this summer and i netted about eight-hundred dollars a month. i live in a chicago where the cost of living is huge. rents are obscene here. yet the government sets minimum wage at a rate where i'm under the federal poverty line. members of congress have repeatedly introduced living-wage bills that get knocked down.

yes, i have freedom of speech, but the american dream is slipping further and further out of reach.

i question having to say the pledge of allegiance at all, even without 'under god'.

[aliss]

i think america should

a) stop the BS about separation of church and state because it's a joke (:worldfishy know what i am talking about - those of you who live in places where it is separate) !

b) use this as a good start and actually separate church and state (e.g., what's with the "in god we trust" on the money?)

there is no reason option (b) should take anything away from people's love of fellow citizens or the country...

it is :sad and :scared to me to see that some of you think christians being in the majority makes it "okay" to have god mentioned in the pledge... i would like to remind you that it is easy to say this when you like that majority... there are parts of the world where the majority likes women to be stoned to death or dressed up in veils and having their body mutilated in ways that they may never enjoy sex because that is what their religion says or tradition dictates... yet these are often considered "bad" in discussions of human rights. majority is not the question. is this a free country or not?! even if it is one person you're limiting or opressing or irritating it makes a difference...

as for god vs. higher power issue some :fishys raised: no it's not just about this god or that god, allah or buddha... there is no need to bring in anything spiritual into these matters. religion is a very personal thing and should remain so...


a.

[Rora]

Hmm...
I refuse to turn my enpassioned speech into a religious debate.

America was once called "the melting pot".
I believe this term still accurate.

Presidency can be elected by a majority vote.
So can "most popular m&m color"
Religion unfortunately, is not as easy to delegate as a popular candy, or a presidential election.

Each person is fully entitled to express (or withold) their religious beliefs.
One :fishy pointed out that the majority of americans (according to her/him) are christians. My response to that is: So what?
Perhaps even christians object to the words "under god" in our pledge of allegiance.

The word "God", and whatever meanings a person has formed about the word, is a word that has been meaningful to many people throughout america's history.

In the midst of this "under god" controversy, I am concerned that we are missing the point OF the pledge of allegiance.
Each morning, children who choose to, and sometimes children who prefer not to, pledge union to our country, the United States of America. A country of great promises, a country united, a country of freedom.
This is my country. This is the country in which I was born, and which I love.

I don't have to agree with "under god", nor do I have to agree with the president when he practices his religious faith publically.

Perhaps our country as a whole will never have this religious freedom concept down to a science. This country is made up of individual people, and each person is entitled to their own opinions, should they, or should they not fit into the united states constitution.

Someone once said, the most important thing to an American, is his/her opinion.
I fully believe that each :fishy here is allowed to state, and believe in their opinion.


But my hope is, that even though many of us disagree with eachother for various reasons, about the "under god" topic.....
I hope that we can still see that there is a greater meaning to the pledge of allegiance, than two single words.

-AuroraRose