Governor James McGreevey resigns-- gay affair

[ribbon]

I just watched the most touching, heart felt speech by Governor James McGreevey (dem) of New Jersey. I was in awe of his bravery and courage as he began his speech, with his wife and parents at his side. His voice was shaking and he began by talking about his sexuality, not his resignation. He talked about trying to fit into society and getting married twice, having two children, one by each woman.
He was being blackmailed by the person he had an affair with was part of his staff, who threatened to sue and tell everyone if McGreevey did not pay him off.
He made if very clear that he was NOT retiring because he's gay, but because the governor's office was being threatened by potential lawsuits.
He apologized to his wife, not for being gay, but for having an affair. He didn't lie to her about his sexuality, but to himself in that he could continue to live a lie. This is what happens when groups of people try to deny the rights of marriage and equality to members of society based on sexuality.
I have a new role model, James McGreevey. He didn't lie to the public. He proudly announced his sexuality while at the same time apoligizing for the decision to have an affair. I had a lot of criticism for clinton in lying to the country about having an affair.
I think people's sexuality, whether nonpublic or public figures should not be fair game as long as it is between two consenting adults. Sexuality is not a choice, but something we're born with. McGreevey made it clear that if he could have, he would have been hetrosexual. He wanted to be the way society told him he should be. He tried for fourty-seven years and just couldn't do it.
As sad a day this is, I think it's also a great day when someone like McGreevey holds his head high and talks about being a gay American.

[Marigold]

I'm so annoyed (and upset) that we have to keep punishing politicians for having affairs - when many of them are doing the same thing - but covertly.

I don't care one teeny tiny bit that McGreevey is gay - (as for covering it up - how would he have ever been elected governor if he "came out" - when we still live in such prejudiced times for gays)?

As for the affair - hello? He's human, he has needs, he's gay but in a marriage that obviously can't satisfy those needs - so he has consensual sex w/another man.

Oh big deal already. A news flash this ain't - no matter how much they play it up.

I wish he could have just said: sorry - but I'm gay - now you all know - and I'll try not to have any more affairs - but I'm gay and that's that. Now, as governor of New Jersey I intend to....

If we censor and punish (in all kinds of ways) people for being gay - how can we expect them not to stay in the closet? Some brave souls come out - and more power to them - but many stand to lose alot just for being...gay.

As a society we should stop pressuring gay people to be straight - or appear that way - (and making it a condition for election to high political office).

Let's not pretend to be shocked or surprised if we find out that, gee whiz, they still keep On being gay even w/a marriage in name type thing going on.

In a truly egalitarian society McGreevey would have never had to pretend in the first place.

And in a sensible, non-prudish, non-purient society we wouldn't especially care that he had consensual sex - even though he is married.
We wouldn't expect people to never make mistakes.
The fact that McGreevey had an affair w/a man *because he is gay* is even more understandable.

I'm so tired of adults who act like shocked little five year olds because they find out - o no! - that people really are, yes Virginia, gay!

I see McGreevey as a victim of society's silly and punitive backlash against gay people.

It's extremely tiring and I'm sick of it.
And because of that - I am opting out of any debate over this that might come up.

I think it is foolish to debate intrinsic human nature - such as being gay.
And, as far as I'm concerned, it's a complete waste of time, as well.

Just wanted to have my say - now I'm done.

Debate away - the fact is - McGreevey will remain gay - and so will all the Other politicians who are gay and married and having affairs - that you Don't know about - no matter who "wins" this "debate":muhaha!

-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

I hadn't heard this story before. Do you mean he told his wife he was gay & she married him despite that? Or that he told her after they were married? Have either the wife or ex-wife stated their feelings on this?

Sexuality is not a choice, but something we're born with.

I agree with that statement. However, I had previously read some of your posts on the sexuality board saying you were still trying to decide things about your sexuality, like which gender your preferred. Do you mean you think the answer has been there all along (i.e. you are gay, straight or bi) but you haven't discovered the truth yet? I ask becuz I thought from reading those posts from you that you felt some people decided later in life which sexual orientation they had, rather than everyone being born already wired a particular way.

I personally believe people are born with their sexuality pre-determined, even if they are in denial at some point. I also think it's a shame in this day & age that a person still feels the pressure to hide it, whether it's a politician or the guy next door.

[Vicks]

As a fellow NJerseyian, I am sad that he resigned, and as Kensy said "sad that people feel the need to hide something like this"

Part of me is glad, that he resigned however, and I will tell you why. First of all, I think he is a great governor, I do. I love his policies, and would have voted for him again.

But I am glad he resigned because while "having an affair" to some people may not seam like a "big thing", to be honest? It is a big thing, and it affects lots of people. Including his wife, and his kids. I personally, wish that all those politicians out there who have "cheated" on their spouses, would resign rather than "keep up a holier than now" image.

I also feel, that by McGreevy resigning, he is saving money and time. If he hadn't, and it had all come out there would have been rummors all over the place. Basically, he led a preemtive attact, he came out with the truth ect... before the press did, and that does take courage.

I hope, that what he does is "reestablishes himself, and comes back to politics" I have no problem, with him being Gay, I guess I do have a problem with him cheating on his wife. And not for religious reasons, but for moral reasons.

What I said may seam like I am condemming him, but he himself said "I broke a vow" he did a very important one.

Vicks

[Tiny Flower]

I personally, wish that all those politicians out there who have "cheated" on their spouses, would resign

That would probably mean that at least half the politicians in your country would have to resign?! People shouldn't have affairs, but they do. It's a big thing and it mainly affects two people (plus their kids, but not even necessarily). It's up to the couple concerned to decide how to deal with that.

In Germany, a lot of gay politicians have come out of the closet in the past couple of years. The mayors of Berlin and Hamburg are gay. As is the leader of the liberal party. And guess what? After a few days, it wasn't a big deal at all.

Tiny

[Vicks]

Tiny - I have no problem with him being gay, not a bit. I admire that fact that he went on live T.V. and said "I am a Gay american" even the Gay community here in NYC, said that "it was a brave thing to do"

I think that McGreevy, by resigning, is saving the state of NJ from having to deal with a lot of crap personally. If he had stayed in office, even after he came out with the fact that he had an affair, some of his credibilty would have been lost. Being that I live in NJ, I have a different incite. His commercials, always show him with his wife and kids, he comes off and portrays the "Irish Catholic" background that he comes from, AGAIN I HSVE NO PROBLEM WITH HIM BEING GAY"

but by him fessing up with the truth, he took responsibility for his actions. To many people don't. That is admirable.

Personally, I think the most important thing with a politician, is that they do a good job, I do care some about their character, but in general I just want them to do a good job. He took the high road, it is sad, I hope he comes back to political life, but right now, he did the right thing for lots of reasons.

I will miss him, because he was a good governor.

Vicks

[quintuplekeets]

I have a new role model, James McGreevey.

I certainly question the judgement of someone who would choose as their role model a person who not only deliberately put the health of his family at risk but the safety of those of us who live in New Jersey. This man allegedly named to the New Jersey's counter-terrorism post the person with whom he was having a relationship, even though this person was wholly unqualified. A role model? I think not.

[IthinkIcan]

Did his wife/wives know? If not, then he is not honest, he was caught. Big difference. I don't care on this account if he is straight, gay or bi.

If they knew, they all chose to live a lie, and they were all caught. This doesn't really fair much better.

If he cannot be elected into office as a gay man living a gay relationship, then so be it. There is honor in THAT more than in coming out in grand fashion saying I've accomplished all this in spite of my gayness, nah nah nah nah nah nah. To say that one does not apologize for their sexuality while having deliberately covered it for "forty-seven years" is most assuredly the biggest lie of all. He was caught. Plain and simple. He was going to be outted and ousted. So, he chose the most "honorable" way and saved taxpayers money and I've missed the grandiose measure of honor in this? Certainly I will give it a measure thereof. It ultimately transcends and trumps out, stumps out Clinton's denials and all that followed. Without knowing his policies or anything more about him than what I've read here today, I would give him infinitely more credit than Clinton.

But, he is still a liar. He lived a lie.

Am I the only one to see this? (in case anyone wonders, I would feel the same way if it was a woman--say his wife couldn't "meet his needs" for some reason so she allowed him to keep a mistress--OY--I see more to life than sex and getting it or not)

[ribbon]

I don't think having an affair is a good thing. I think it's a private thing between McGreevey and his wife and between McGreevey and the man he had the affair with.
I respect him and look up to him, NOT because he's gay or because he had an affair, but because of the honesty and passion of his speech. I respect him for resigning effective November fifteenth and not finishing out his term under the likelihood of a civil lawsuit that would be distracting and get in the way of his ability to govern NJ.
I also feel for him because it could have only been excrutiatinly painful for him to have hidden his sexuality for so long. I have a friend who like McGreevey, was married with two children and a practicing catholic. He came out to his wife and got a divorce about five years earlier in his life than McGreevey. I saw how much he struggled and the extreme burden he felt when deciding whether to come out or not. It caused him to become so depressed he became suicidal. His wife is also a friend of mine and I saw her pain too. And his pain about causing her pain. I hear about his struggles with a church that called him a sinner and judged his love. That is why I respect McGreevey and look up to him for his speech.
Kensy, to answer your question, I don't think sexuality is black and white where people fit into nice, neat little boxed of homo,hetro or bisexual and I believe that to be inborn. I know for a fact my friend would have been straight if he could have.
:trigger mentions abuse
From my own experience, being sexually abused as a child complicates sexuality. Even though abuse is about violence more so than sex, because of the details of the acts, it can effect one's views on sexuality and sex. It is and has been important to figure out if my attractions are not a result of possible unresolved issues, but as a true and healthy choice based on what I feel in my heart not fear.
end :trigger

tiny flower.... only half :muhaha ???? Our country is still a laughing stock in parts of europe because of how we freaked out over monicagate :ohboy. The think (correctly in my opinion) we're prudes, according to my european friends.

Quintuplekeets, those facts have yet to be proven. Personally I don't know whether or not McGreevey used protection so it's hard to say whether he put his wife and family in danger. As to the counter-terrorism person, from another friend who works in airport securities, the israelis have the most knowledge about security and the americans, even after september eleventh pale in comparison.

[Marigold]

I'd like to venture back in here - but not to debate gayness (yawn).

I am not shocked when an elected official has an affair and is discovered.

Why?

:bulletWell, first of all - to my way of thinking - I simply feel an affair is none of my business - it is to be worked out between the two people who are married to each other.

:bulletWe all also know (many of us anyway) people in our own lives who have had affairs. Maybe even we ourselves have had an affair...or two - (not me though, as I am not married and am *currently* living like a nun:muhaha).
Therefore I consider it *hypocritical in the extreme* to act all shocked and so forth and indignant.

:bulletAnd there are plenty of marriages where, even if no straying is going on, far worse is happening like abuse and violence. Or crushing, unrelenting indifference to each other. Or constant criticizing - and/or coldness.
A little perspective is needed when it comes to affairs. They are not happy things - for anyone involed - but we need to understand that yes, they Do happen. Alot.

:bulletI don't expect elected officials to act like saints and never stray or whatever - I do expect them to act w/decisive and strong leadership skills, though.

:bulletI don't particularly give a hoot about what two people are doing sexually to each other - as long as they are adults and it is consensual. I guess I've got better things to worry about...I don't know?:confused

:bulletWas it not Jesus himself who said words to the effect of: "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" when all those self-righteous folks wanted to stone that poor woman to death? Jesus stood up for her - and asked everyone present to examine their own consciences. I think this great *advice* still applies today...!:winky

:bulletClinton has been (symbollically) stoned many times over for his "sinning" - and I for one am tired of hearing about it. I've moved on - it was overblown when it happened - and it is doubly overblown today when anyone brings it up.

:bulletI also understand that when people are "caught" in extramarital affairs - they often lie to cover themselves up (and yes, their families too) - to protect themselves - and loved ones. This does not suprise me or dismay me.

:bulletOften people who stray come to understand that they have hurt many others - and they learn from their mistakes, often. I think we need to allow people to do this w/o getting all huffy about it.

:bulletPeople who are gay and either deny it or do not even realize it - I do not see these people as "living a lie" - I see them as terribly confused and anguished deep within their souls - because we still live in a gay-bashing world. That's just reality. Right now a person can really suffer - in their jobs and in all kinds of ways - if they come out.

:bulletI also don't see sex as just "getting it on" or whatever, so let me be clear:
I see a person's sexuality as deeply linked to their spirituality - and to deny one means to suppress the other. Many might think there is more to life than *mere* sexuality - but I see sexuality as a deeply important and integral part of one's life - and the biggest "lie" poor McGreevey was living - was to *himself* in violation of his true nature.

But he has now overcome that. Maybe he was *forced* to (Life in the form of other people can do this alot of times) - but even so, now he is living a life that honors his core self.

And that is why I, along w/:starsRibbon:stars see him as a *role-model* for this courageous act - despite whether or not he "had to". Because gay people do experience discrimination - and sometimes they even pay for w/their lives for being gay.
At the very least they face the kinds of humiliations that we straight people do not have to face.
-Marigold:sun

[shortstop]

I second Marigold.
I don't believe that the word "caught" is an appropriate word here because it implies doing something wrong. His sexuality isn't wrong it is what it is. Granted, cheating on his wife isn't right...but it is between them. I'm not saying that I agree with cheating, I'm saying that it's between them.
I don't elect someone based on what their fidelity or sexuality is. I would have voted for Clinton for a third term...I could care less about what he does or does not not with an intern. And I didn't even want to bring it up because it is soooooo old and sooooo over. :whateva Just like I won't vote for Bush just because he isn't cheating, well as far as we know. None of us are perfect. I am more suspect of an official who puts himself up as perfect because noone is.
Good for him...he is being who he is. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[shortstop]

ITIC said: If he can not be elected into office as a gay man living in a gay relationship then so be it.

*sigh* I think it says a lot about our country that this is the case. We really need to get past this. I really disagree with this statement. Sorry.

[Anonymous_Member009]

he gave his lover-ex a six figure job running something to do with terrorism. other than being israeli, he had no qualifications for the job.

and your all focused on his gayness?

his lover attempted to extort money from him to keep his side quiet. the governor attempted to round up the money.

and your all focused on his gayness???

this isn't at all about his gayness. its about what he did for his partner and then the fallout. those things were a tad bit....um....what's the word.....questionable....no....not there yet......:bulb illegal. that's the word! that's what the investigators had already started doing before he announced his resignation.

i don't think the investigators are going to be overly concernced about his sexual orientation. there is much more to this story to come.

[quintuplekeets]

I completely agree with you Picasso!!!!

[IthinkIcan]

I think y'all misapprehend me on several points, some quite interesting contextually as they refer back to other replies.

First, caught referred to the affair, potential arrangement, although I could see how you thought I meant otherwise.

About the statement, it's about integrity, which to me is what this whole issue is about. I can't speak to the other allegations without much research. Or, at least "some." Picasso makes great points, though. This was really the direction I was hoping I'd get to go with a rebuttal. Basically speaking, I want leaders that are honest. I don't want the status quo. I want to be slightly shocked when they don't act with integrity, particularly when they portrary themselves as having it or some other value and then flouting it. Why do I want someone in the norm, the average joe schmoe running our government? Our country? Idealistic? Perhaps. But, I will continue to vote with morals and integrity in mind. AN affair, a ONE-NIGHT stand, yes, things happen. But, these are not the things to which we have referred to here. To a certain end these politicians have a relationship with their public, their elected. Maybe some don't feel as hurt by such behavior. Why should it be a surprise that others do when values vary. It all just comes down to our basic differences once again :wacky

Big phucking surprise. How is that people can always bring these things back to these basic differences. :muhaha

I will obviously need to research the allegations against him.

[Vicks]

I too don't care if he is Gay or not. I would have voted for the man in a few monthes because he was a good governor, in my opinion, I liked his policies.

But as much as people want to say "infidelity" is ok, and that is what I am hearing, it isn't ok. Perhaps, this is because I am married. When you are married, you have a certain amount of trust you are placing in someone. It is a huge commitment, I do not think it was "OK" what Clinton did, and I do think that how it was handled was inaapropriate.

I give McGreevy, credit, for as Ribbon mentioned "avoiding an all out dirty campaign and scandal in New Jersey politics" he came out, with everything, before the press got to him. Which is an honorable thing to have done. It was the right thing to have done.

ITIC and Picasso, are you two married? I only ask this, because as a married person, if my husband had an affair he would be out the door. I would be so incredibly hurt, so to just accept "infidelity" as something that happens, well I won't just say "oh it happens" Yes, other things happen to that are awefull, I won't say that they are "ok" either. Abuse isn't ok, in any form, it is intolerable in any form, just like "infidelity".

I beleive that integrity and morals are important. I beleive having someone who can fight, who can be honest, who has proven their abilities by acting and not just talking, morals vary for everyone, but I would like to think "that we all want someone representing us who is honest" Abe Lincoln - isn't lauged at for being referred to as "Honest Abe"

There is value in it. And I consider myself a democrat by the way.

vicks

[IthinkIcan]

Good grief, Vicks! Where in the world do you get the idea that I believe infidelity is okay!? Precisely the opposite!!

To me fidelity is PART of integrity. Read my stuff again perhaps :wacky Very clearly, for the record, I am one hundred percent against infidelity. I feel that I am hurt by it, even if it is by one of our government leaders, so, how could it be that I wouldn't be utterly DEVASTATED if my HUSBAND (of ELEVEN YEARS) did it!?

So, to answer your question, Vicks, I'm married. And very anti-affairs. Interestingly, you picked out Picasso here, who is also married and, well, I can't say what she would do in the case of an affair as that is personal. You didn't ask, but I would leave my husband; he knows it. It would cause irrepairable damage in our TRUST, which, to me, is the foundation of any good relationship--without it there can't be good communication, intimacy, etc.

[Ernie]

I think quintuplekeets and Picasso have made great points. We do not know all of the facts surrounding this issue; but I believe extramarital affairs are are private matter between partners. I speculate that there is far more to this than the fact that he decided he couldn't live a lie anymore. As for whether or not McGreevey's actions are honorable, it depends on the reason he made his choice. There's honor in doing the "right thing" when you do so based on your personal beliefs in what is right. That's different than doing the "right thing" because you fear being exposed by someone else. Again, we do not know all of the facts yet. Time will tell I suppose.

Ernie

[IthinkIcan]

I see it, Vicks.

To quote myself AN affair, a ONE-NIGHT stand, yes, things happen.

This is to say this was far beyond something that can be blamed on any factor x, y, or z, which I ought have clarified doesn't fly and doesn't "just happen." I was referring back to other text here on the board about affairs and how they happen and etc. I was trying to point out how it didn't just "happen," it happened over and over. Moreover, it was a RELATIONSHIP.

A little more clear?

Oy vey. To think that someone would think I felt the way you thought I did about affairs. It was, of course, my own doing.

[Kensington]

If it's true that the man resigned becuz he knew his whole story was about to blow up in the press, I don't see that the same as him taking the high road becuz he believes in telling the truth. He told becuz he had no other choice. What's role-model material about that?

If, as is being widely reported, his lover had no valid reason to be given the security job but was given it anyway, that is not something I'm looking for in a "hero".

The thing that comes to mind here is that sometimes it's easy for people to jump to the defense of someone becuz the idea that discrimination against gays has entered the picture as a possibility. If the governor had been caught having an affair with a woman, an unqualified woman he also bestowed with a pretty serious job, would the reaction from everyone be the same? It seems like sometimes it's too easy to yell "gay rights" when this has way more to do with the actions this man took when his pants were on, not off.

Another thing that came to mind is this: let's say a fish posted here that her husband had been caught having an affair, had given the lover a job at his office that could potentially endanger many people, & this was all about to be brought to wide attention. Say she posted saying, "He tells me he's actually a hero becuz he told people right before it went public. Should I believe him? Should his employees & people affected by his job decisions believe him?" I picture a lot of fish getting out the familiar :digdeep icon rather than jumping to say this man did nothing wrong.

To answer ribbon's comments, I have heard many gay people say they would have been born straight if they could choose it. My point was I had thought you felt that you were still deciding your orientation, as in it could go either way & was unknown at all. So when you said here it's inborn, I wasn't sure if I misunderstood one position or the other.

[Vicks]

ITIC - know I ment that "I am very much against affairs" Period, sorry I mis said something. SO, I agree that aren't good. I would deffinitely leave my husband if he had an affair, it would be an abandoment of trust and I lose respect for him.

What I saw from other people, and even what I have seam to heard in general public is that "infidelity is ok" it seams to be becoming acceptable which saddens me.

Vicks

[Anonymous_Member009]

Vicks,
infidelity is not okay. for the record, i believe it as sin, yet according to my Book, quite forgiveable.
would i leave my husband over it? fifteen years of marriage, the majority of those lived under the stress of domestic violence, proves no. if i could survive that, and work in therapy to change the situation, i don't think there's anything that couldn't be overcome in our marriage. btw, there is evidence of an early affair. it caused me great pain. but we got through it. its not trust. its committment. till death do us part.
Mr. and Mrs. McGreevy,on their own, without the press, will decide if they want to remain committed. they can throw in the towel to their marriage if that's what they decide to do. but many couples have gotten past infedility. its wounding, but it doesn't have to kill.

i am glad that some here are able to see that this is not at all a case of gay discrimination. he chose to step down because he knew the whole story. i haven't had the time or the inclination to follow this with great scrutiny, but i hope to God he's not portraying himself as a victim.

[Marigold]

The question as to whether or not gayness is inborn - or people can *chose* it over time - I ask:

Who knows? Who knows for sure?

Beyond that - why should it even matter?
For myself...it does not.

As for infidelity - to understand that it happens (and why - esp. w/gay people pretending to be straight) is not the same as condoning it.


Infidelity debates are about as interesting as homosexuality debates (double yawn).


McGreevey - More facts need to be uncovered - I just read yesterday that his former lover is saying that *he* was the harrassed one - whereas McGreevey says the former lover was trying to extort five million out of McGreevey in exchange for keeping silent.

I feel the human pain of it all - I think it probably cost McGreevey Alot to step down - and I think he might now deeply regret having that affair. He loved politics - and now it is over for him in any serious way.

A man's life has been destroyed, his family deeply hurt - and who knows?

I'm thinking if he could have been honest about his gayness from the start (and not had to have chosen between that and his career) - most if not all of this would not have occured.

As for him hiring a person who might not have been right for a sensitive important job - a person he was personally involved with - sure that was wrong.

But - I am not going to gasp and faint in some Victorian horror of it all.

It Has been done before - it Will be done again. It isn't right - guess we can all agree on that.

For those people who are always so quick to judge, to point fingers, to cry "foul"...

I guess you could call me a bit jaded here, but...I don't think anyone is perfect - even the person w/the ring on his or her finger who's been married so many years...and goes to church and whatever.

Lots of those types in the public eye have turned out to be imbroiled in their own dirty business.

Besides which, rigid and judgemental people are often cruel and unkind. They act like they don't have any feelings - except self-righteous anger.

I feel for McGreevey. I am hurt that he had to end it all like this.
And I don't care if he isn't perfect.

Sometimes a role model makes really bad choices - and then does what he can to finally do the right thing.

Role models do not have to be candidates for sainthood either - not in my book.

When they do the right thing - even if life's circumstances have forced them to - I admire that.

I never underestimate the power of people to live in denial - which is just what McGreevey could have kept on doing - even if he was going to be outed.

And - being gay does matter in this case because it is why he had to cover up in the first place.

If we are going to pretend that being gay is the same as being straight in terms of discrimination - then I feel we are venturing into the relm of unreality.
-Marigold:sun

[quintuplekeets]

I really like what you had to say, Kensington.

[IthinkIcan]

:hugon Kensington :hugoff I agree with you one hundred percent. :sarcasm Rare, hey. But, it's done. I feel this is a very sensible stand and gets to the root of the issue, transcending so much.

Marigold, you want true equality, then sexuality cannot be an issue; the same holds true of gender, race, religion, etc. (this is to say we must get to the bottom of this and find out what the real issue is and stop focusing on sexuality as it is only a smokescreen) It's not a matter of compassion or realism, although if one wants to wane philosophiscal on this board, as often happens, one might argue that each person's reality is different. I've taken philosophy and religion courses until they come out my ears and, ultimately, I'm comfortable with what I believe; you're comfortable with what you believe. We're unlikely to change each other's POV. I do, however, try to understand where you and all people come from. For instance, Ribbon's reply here brought tears to my eyes. There was more transparency here than normal, the struggle more real as she fights to define her own sexuality instead of just brashness. The admission that she realizes her sexuality may have been shaped by abuse experiences versus something inborn. Frankly, I feel it can go inborn or "choice," of course, to imply "choice" in this case is to allow a heckuva lot more leeway than there might actually be, particulary in individual circumstances. I know that. I feel that. In fact, in many ways I would call myself asexual because of the abuse, perhaps the saddest state of all. I've explored in my mind what I would be like with a woman--some might find this shocking. I've been propositioned by women several times over the years (even whilst married--yikes--so I must exude some kind of confusion). Fact is, I ALWAYS remember this underlying pain I heard in Ribbon's reply and the feelings in my own life and so many friends when dealing with current issues, which is why I may seem wishy-washy. Cuz, frankly, I have a lot of compassion. My beliefs, shaped by a religious idea, are often in conflict with my feelings. And when I wane philosophical with the religious crowd it gets quite interesting. But, we will all stand on something in this life and should. I do. You do.

It's just that in all this, and in all the heatedness, sometimes I feel that the facts get lost. I was so glad when Kensy said what she did because I also know that certain people can say the same things as others and have them be more likely to be accepted since others will perceive them as more sympathetic to their "cause."

Just remember it hurts. I do. We don't know one another here. We really don't.

And, Picasso, I hear you. That's why I said I couldn't answer for you. We are both DV survivors. We have both stayed with husbands that have abused us grievously. Infidelity is a biblical grounds for divorce, although remarriage is an issue. Truthfully, though, I wonder if the chips were down what I what do. You may very well just be more realistic. :sad I just hope you are not more trodden down. I hope for more faith-filled and not a state from where He could pick you up.



Marigold, really, you just ooze such bitterness it's difficult to know how to handle. I am married, for many years (I suppose), and I go to church. This, somehow, seems to make me an automatic enemy. You already have a perception of what I will be. It is true that I am not liberal, but I am far from an uncompassionate person.

[Marigold]

IThinkICan,

I don't like to be characterized as "oozing bitterness" (although that is a very powerful way to put it - and I respect power) - and, too, I respect that you (and perhaps others?) might feel this way.

For myself, I see alot of bitterness in other people's replies here - and anger - certainly not just in my own replies.

Also:
:sunI must respectfully but firmly disagree w/Kensington that being gay is not a central reason why McGreevey resigned. Not the only reason, no. But I did not say that either. I know there are other reasons too.:sun

The fact is - it's hard, very hard, to get across points and feelings about things in the current events forum in particular.

After all - you cannot see or hear me and pick up non-verbal cues that way - nor me from you.

ITIC - if I feel bitterness - if I ooze it in fact, as you assert about me, it might be because I am also someone who has suffered.

And who still does - w/my ed.

Also - much of what you write is deeply confusing to me - I guess I can't make "head nor tails" out of alot of it - not sure why. It might be me, not you, but whatever, it's hard to get a handle on what you are Really saying.

For instance - I do not agree at all that equality means the negating of sexual differences, gender and so forth, as you seem to assert.

Anway - I don't want to debate anyone over anything when I am not sure what ground we are standing on - if it seems shaky to me - as it most definately does when I consider your response.

Also - injustice makes me bitter, indeed.
And for gay people - there is still much injustice in the world.

Beyond that - to characterize me (oozing bitternes) is to do the very thing you inveigh against here:

"Just remember it hurts. I do. We don't know one another here. We really don't."

You are absolutely right. So please...remember that. Just as I do not know you - you do not know me.

I do not think married people or people who go to church are the enemy! But I also do not automatically respect such people just because they are married and/or they go to church.

Society often grants such people de-facto respect - but I do not.
That's what I was saying - not that you are my "automatic enemy" for being a married church-goer.

Also, in regards to this statement:

"My beliefs, shaped by a religious idea, are often in conflict with my feelings."

I would urge you to go w/your feelings - if they are the more compassionate response to a situation or person.
I certainly respect your rights to feel as you do, ITIC. But I like compassion.

I feel I often *ooze compassion*! - which is why I like the compassionate response over the intellectual response - unless intellect backs up compassion.

Sometimes a strong stand for one's beliefs must be taken - perhaps it is this you confuse w/ the "bitterness" you see in me.

In any case I feel somewhat personally attacked by your assessing of my character - when, in fact, you feel (and state) your opinions just as strongly as I do.

I hope we can stick w/our opinions about current events on this forum, and not get into character assessments of each other. I don't think that's really fair.

(I appreciate your feelings/thoughts/views - ITIC - and have just read your response to my just posted thread (the "dangerous" one) and I feel that if we met - we'd find alot of common ground between us).
-Marigold:sun

[ribbon]

:hugonmarigold:hugoff I think you ooze honesty, truth and wisdom :supergrin.
In many ways I do see McGreevey as a victim of a society and a religion that says this is how you you are supposed to be as a man to be considered successful. He's a victim of judgment and prejudice trying to be that man while also being true to himself.
His ex-wife and mother of his twelve year old daughter spoke to one of the news stations, pledging her support. She just found out when he called her a few days ago and said his first concern was for their daughter. His ex said that their daughter is doing well and both she had her daughter love and respect him. She also describes him as a great father.
He could have made other choices and I'll bet he thinks he should have with some of the things he did. Hindsight is twenty-twenty. From what I've heard about his love for his daughters, it doesn't sound like would take that back.
I certainly don't think he's a saint or flawless.
I was upset to hear one of the newscasters say that McGreevey is resigning because of an illicit affair. As long as the affair was between two consenting adults, I think the need to use the word illicit is necessary.
I think that if this had been a hetrosexual affair the reporting (and probably opinions) would be a lot different. Of course we can't really know for sure. I know that I lost respect for Clinton, not because of his affair with Monica, but because he looked the American people in the eye and lied about it repeatedly. Even though I believe that was a personal matter, it didn't, in my opinion, give him a right to lie when he could have said, "I'm not going to feed into the discussion by answering that question."
There is passion in my words about my own sexuality, no longer pain. The pain was always about the abuse, not my orientation. My sexuality isn't a choice and I have done and am doing the work I need to, to avoid making that a choice based on what is easier, but on what I feel in my heart. It would have been a lot easier for me to just "decide" I was gay while working through trauma issues. I would have only had to examine my surface feelings, which were being afraid of men. Some fifteen years later I was able to explore what I truly wanted, not out of fear but out of love. That to me is beautiful. I couldn't always find beauty in sexuality because it was overshadowed by PTSD and trauma.
One of my closest friends is married and bisexual. Her husband knows because she's always been up front with him. She has never been with a woman and would never cheat on her husband, with a man or with a woman. She tells me is fulfilled sexually and has fantasies about both genders. She isn't choosing to be attracted to both, that's just how she feels.
I was born knowing a gay man, a relative, even though I didn't know for sure until I was a preadolescent. He was beaten as a child by his father for not being manly enough. Until his father died, his partner of thirty plus years was not welcome into his parent's home. That is sad and painful. I admire this relative for being true to himself in the face of homophobia and abuse.
I have never heard of an example of someone who chose to be gay, though I have heard of people who chose to live a lie as a hetrosexual.

[Kensington]

Marigold said: I must respectfully but firmly disagree w/Kensington that being gay is not a central reason why McGreevey resigned

Are you saying he quit for the sole or main reason that he is gay? I'm unsure what you meant by what I quoted.

I don't think anyone should resign an office or be denied a position becuz they are gay. I think gay people should be allowed to marry.

My point is I don't see this as a man who did everything he did becuz society won't allow him to marry men, as some of the responses seem to indicate. Is it more difficult to be gay than straight in this world? Of course! But which way your door swings does not give you more of a "right" to have an affair, give your lover a job he appears not to deserve & then quit right before it blows up in your face while trying to frame it as he had no other choice becuz of discrimination.

[Marigold]

:starsKensington:stars -

sorry if my quote causes confusion.

I am saying that, while it does not give McGreevey (or anyone) the *right* to have an affair - it *does* explain *why* he had the affair very well for me. (If I use too many of these - * - it's because it's alot easier to do then put stuff in italics)!:winky

I think I explained, also, as best I could, why I do not get all out-of-joint if a politician has a consensual affair w/another - man or woman - in my other response - where I "bulleted":bullet - all my reasons.

I realize that this is how *I* feel - and that others do get very upset when/if they find out a politician has an affair.

I'm sure if I was cheated on in my personal life (which, actually, once I was -or felt like I was - because I wasn't married to the man - but it still felt devastating) - I would be deeply upset.

But that is my personal life - and so I can detach those personal feelings from a public figure who has a consensual affair - and I understand, esp. in McGreevey's case - *why* it happened.

To be honest - if he gave an important position to a man (or woman) who was *unqualified* for it - that would bother me alot more than the affair.

But I still think that when a person feels they need to hide their sexuality - (and the more pressing this need to hide is for them, the more under stress they are) - it really explains for me why they might behave in a :wacky manner. And do stupid and even bad things. Because they are not being able to be honest in a very core way.

I still think he has suffered and suffers alot for what he did - and it might have been avoided had he either not been gay - or came of age during this time - he is, after all, forty-seven.

I think if he were a teenager today - maybe he might make different choices about hiding his gayness. Maybe, even, he'd find a way to integrate his gayness w/his political career - maybe. Even today it is hard for a politcian to come out.

And :starsRiboon:stars - thankyou for your validation! I appreciate it - and let me say that it is Very Very brave of you to talk about your sexuality and abuse here - thankyou for that. I'm sure I'm not the only :fishy who feels this way.
-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

Parts taken from an MSNBC.COM commentary article I just read:

McGreevey himself said at one point in his statement, “It makes little difference that as governor I am gay.”

If so, why not finish his term and make history as America’s first openly gay governor, getting praise from gay rights groups for his courage?

"The fact of this affair and my own sexuality, if kept secret, leaves me, and most importantly the governor's office, vulnerable to rumors, false allegations and threats of disclosure,” McGreevey said Thursday.

Politicians deal with rumors and false allegations nearly every day, usually brushing them away as annoyances.

But what about “threats of disclosure”? Disclosure of what? The governor disclosed the fact of his gay romance Thursday, which should have ended its potency as blackmail

I agree with this questioning. If the only problem was he was going to be outed & he has now outed himself, why resign?

Marigold, I don't feel "out of joint" cuz the man had an affair. What I'm pointing out is my own feelings that he may be hiding in part behind a big "Homosexual Oppressed By The Man!" flag that is more convenient than it is appropriate.

I'm one hundred percent for people of any sexual preference getting their fair share of this world & not being oppressed. But I also think it's necessary to not assume anyone who claims they are oppressed by anti-gay actions or feelings is just that. It's unfair for a person or group to act like anyone who questions this must be anti-gay on some level.

People can claim they did something becuz they are oppressed by straights, whites, this that or the other, but that doesn't always make it true. I'm trying to examine this from all angles & see where his responsibility lies in it all, rather than write him a free ticket becuz he is gay.

With all rights come responsibilities, & while I certainly respect your & ribbon & anyone else's right to express that you think he has done nothing or little wrong, I see it differently, based on what I know of the case so far.

[Ernie]

Kensington, you have expressed your viewpoint so well. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[IthinkIcan]

Marigold: You say, For instance - I do not agree at all that equality means the negating of sexual differences, gender and so forth, as you seem to assert.
As Kensy says, which further clarifies my position on this and in general: People can claim they did something becuz they are oppressed by straights, whites, this that or the other, but that doesn't always make it true. I'm trying to examine this from all angles & see where his responsibility lies in it all, rather than write him a free ticket becuz he is gay.

I do think, perhaps, that when it comes to this situation you are seeing with clouded vision because of your passion for gay rights. I have no problem being straightforward with you, only with the barbs and jabs. I sincerely apologize if something about my phrasing offended you, in "oozing bitterness." Yet, you admit to bitterness easily sparked when it comes to gay rights and certain other topics and/or perceived ignorance in the face of these things. I obviously seem to exhibit some (okay, most) of these qualities (?). Think of oozing as weeping, for truly I was envisioning oozing as, well, oozing, bleeding, etc.

I know you may not see yourself as having clouded vision of any sort, but, frankly, we likely all do when it comes to one thing or another, particularly where a passion is involved.

Marigold, if you feel as if I don't know where I'm coming from . . . you've finally caught on. I've very clearly stated my confusion, my training and even playing devil's advocate. I can debate both sides. But, often, y'all don't know where *I* stand. Most often because *I* don't. Wouldn't make for a very good CE board if I only continually let y'all in on my confusion now would it? As a for instance, there was a political scoring recently, I scored eighteen; Ribbon scored fourteen. Many scored much more conservatively or liberally. Certain hot button items have gotten replayed to the point where these have become definers of who *I* am or *you* are, and we are so much more than that. And, furthermore, I already gave you the real deal on where I really stand. I've even told y'all in the middle of the heat. Sometimes I feel as if people don't listen to *me* In another post here I had people asking for knowledge I have while heat was being applied to breaking point when I had stated in the beginning I was more or less playing DA and had the background to do so.

You want the real me? Half, even most, of the time I'm afraid to say how I REALLY feel, especially to put it in print. Afraid of (anyone?) God. There, I said it. I hope no one is laughing, because it presses down hard on me. Great, now I'm crying. I'm the hardest on (surprise) *myself.* Luckily the faith community I'm in right now is trying to love me to wellness, but, lately, I have seen the petitions and heard things that hurt. And then there's the comments from my doctor, who goes there, about how maybe I should starve, he would if what has happened to my weight happened to him (damn meds) especially given some other medical conditions, that it would be worth it, and that a/b is only a condition of teenagers, young women anyway, and (I'm) not exactly young anymore. So, I basically live under fear. I believe in the Bible; therein is the problem. I truly know what it says and demands of us, and, yes, I know that part of that is compassion but not to the point of permissiveness. Please, don't jump on that as I know what I mean and to what I refer and it likely does not mean what you think (Ms. Gray I am). YET, I have experienced so much in my life, so much PAIN--abuse, horrid stuff, including by a (pastor) husband that would get up and preach one thing having done another in the car on the way there. I have seen church cover-ups and things that would make y'all irate (but not cringe or blanch in a Victorian way-- :muhaha :winky Marigold I would like your humor swoon not my friend). There is so much y'all don't know, but I tuck it all away. I have to, or feel I have to.

Or what, be struck dead, go to hell.

Yes, my reality. Why would I judge when I live like this. I live compassionately for the torment I describe above, yet I still vote according to the rule by which I feel I must live.

So, Marigold, the truth.

[MegaVictory]

Sorry fishies if I come on too strong, don't want to offend anyone, but this is how I feel. Idealistically speaking, if the man was a good governor (I know nothing about him), and he had an affair, gay or otherwise, but it didn't interfere with his work, he would drop a little in my regard (over breaking a committment--unless it came out that he and his wife had an open marriage), but I would still vote for him. Who am I to judge? One's personal life, is one's personal life. But from what seems to be going on here, he had an affair with one of his aides ("you don't shit where you eat"), gave that aide a highly responsible (high security) position the individual wasn't even qualified for, tried to pay him off (with government funds) when the romance went sour, and then was blackmailed by the guy which forced him to "come clean" before a bigger can of worms was opened, not to mention, the state of New Jersey's security was in jeopordy dut to all this. Putting morals aside, ethics, sexuality, whatever, I would say, in this case, the guy simply used very bad judgement, so I would not want him for my leader. I would not vote for him again. He should be dismissed tomorrow, not November Fifteenth. (If you or I did something like this, we would be out asap.) He has to pay the consequences of his bad choices. And when a man is in a public position, working for his fellow man, he has a bigger responsibililty than your everyday Joe, which makes it even extra hard to take.

[Marigold]

Well,
This is really getting involved - and, I don't know all the facts about McGreevey yet - as I think I've said already.

Kensington - you may be right about all this... I did state that we have yet to know all the details - time will tell. Maybe real soon. I agree w/you - alot more may be going on than just being gay - but on the other hand - a married politician having a gay affair seems somehow "worse" I think, to the public - then a married politician having an affair w/someone of the opp. sex - a la Clinton.

Clinton got trapped cause he lied under oath about the affair - otherwise people would not have reacted so intensely, to my way of thinking. McGreevey could very well have gotten trapped because he is married - and gay. That's all I'm saying. I don't think ignoring his gayness is seeing the whole picture either. It definately has had an impact on the whole thing.

ITIC - I'm getting more and more confused as we "talk". You refer to my barbs and jabs - my bitterness - yet you've already been wrong in your assumptions about me - for instance in your assumption, previously stated, that I would see you as the enemy just because you are married and a church member. You misinterpreted me in that way completely.

Anyway - the more I say - the less I will be understood - I fear.

But one thing that does come across to me ITIC - is that you have alot of pain inside.

So - maybe it's time to "agree to disagree" - because it is not my intention At All to add to any of your pain - it's simply my intention to stay true to my values.

As for cloudy vision? I don't know of any one person anywhere who hasn't had their vision clouded over one thing or another...at least some time.
-Marigold:sun

[ribbon]

ITIC, I am sorry that your church/religion places such judgment on you and leads you to be uncomfortable expressing your feelings and opinions. That cannot be a positive feeling.

Even though I do not believe there is a god, I did a bit of research on and attended different churches/religions and beliefs before deciding that it would be hypocritical of me to do the church thing and not believe in god (because that seemed to be a "given" at all of them :sarcasm). I hope you realize that there are many churches and religious that are more open and accepting of different thoughts, types of people and ideals. There are churches that believe in a kind and loving god, not one who's ready to send everyone to hell if they don't meet impossible standards. What I'm trying to say is that I hate to see you or anyone else feel stifled and judged and that can't feel good. It also isn't universal in religion.
still vote according to the rule by which I feel I must live
I feel sad that you use the word MUST because to me it sounds like a prison of the mind :love.

[Marigold]

:hugonITIC:hugoff,

I just got over my fear - and read your latest response to me more deeply.

I am sad that you *seem* to be involved with a church where you are not valued and/or feel unsafe - this is what I take from your words - such as that doctor who is a member and what he said to you.
And your husband.

Also - you state that you willingly play devil's advocate - and this is a position I have some familiarity w/myself:winky - and there is really nothing wrong w/it, per se, if it is done to broaden one's mind.

But I am getting the feeling you play DA because you feel empty and void within, and also to hide yourself from others - which is different than playing it just to explore certain ideas and viewpoints.

Also - if you play DA on a regular basis here - which I gather you do - if I read your words correctly - then people Will be confused as to where you really stand on postions.

It is ok to be confused about things though - I just admitted to Kensington that I am rather more, at this point, confused about the whole McGreevey affair.

I guess, though, that my heart still goes out to him - the words he said about being in deep conflict about his sexuality spoke to me.

Not about my own sexuality - but more about growing up feeling tormented w/doubt - and feeling that you must hide who you really are to others.

I have had a backround of this - so I feel compassion, yes I do, for McGreevey - and I sincerely hope he is worth it - because I don't know - I just do know though - that being gay is still very difficult in alot of ways - and in parts of the country - downright unsafe.

So...at this point - don't think I can say more...
-Marigold:sun

[IthinkIcan]

One thing we both have arrived at through this is an awareness of the common ground growing up feeling tormented w/doubt - and feeling that you must hide who you really are to others.

I'm not at church today. In hiding, in all the truest respects. The ED voice is loud. I don't want to be SEEN. I am also physically weak (surgery, post-surgical infection(s)/complications, and other symptoms common to surgical menopause that is complicated by my other physical conditions).

Yes, I have been hiding.

Playing DA not so much to hide but out of the ability to present the side that isn't often presented here, one that I intellectually line up with quite often but emotionally divert from even more so. It's to say I am still defining myself and views and likely sway in the conservative direction, for the reasons I told you. Reason. Fear.

Want true transparency? I believe my daughter may have homosexual/lesbian/bisexual leanings. Is it nature? Nurture? Then add that she was, well, this would be more suitable content for safety zone and could be very triggery. Anyhow, a female abuser. She is only eight--my daughter. I love her. I will support her emotionally and not abandon her in any way regardless of what becomes of this. If my husband would choose to abandon her or forbid her from home, I would choose her over him (we've had the conversation; he sees the possibility, and I'm already trying to soften his heart). I consider what I want for her life when I think of the marriage amendment and other things. Obviously these things become deeply personal when I look at my sweet, innocent little girl. I blame myself for maybe being too absent in my disabled state. Yes, this seems to have started the leaning. Then, the abuse. Also, stuff at home. The fact that it is often us against the world. There are some strange dynamics. I am telling you that I was too absent, then too entwined, and even a combination. Parenting as a disabled adult is not an easy task. This sound like nonsense? A lack of understanding about where sexuality comes from? Maybe. But it is the reality of what parents face when they see such things.

Now imagine that the little girl you love so much may have within her something that flies in the face of everything you "know" or believe. It more or less comes down to the shades of gray thing I mentioned to you before. I think many who embrace the idea that all who are homosexual were "born that way" are denying certain evidence, namely those who have admitted otherwise (I've known several, and it was due to abuse/trauma issues). Life has managed to challenge the neat little boxes and rules of Christianity, although I didn't know the rules until after some of the challenges. It's the whole abortion thing. People get all up in arms when I say it's wrong or go beyond that. To me that part is ever so simplistic not just biblically but scientifically. Emotionally *shaking head* it's not. I've been pregnant from rape. I've been quite young and pregnant from rape. Would I not hold my daughter's hand and walk into an abortion clinic and support her in the aftermath?

On and on it goes. So, do I understand how and why he could and would hide as he did? Think back even to the former illustration. I would not force my daughter to maintain an unsafe pregnancy (young age) or endure the scrutiny that comes with advancing stages of pregnancy because of a crime, if she could not handle it and chose not to do so. Matters of sexuality bring such scrutiny and judgment, to the point that I would go against something I know. Isn't that what he did?

To me, however, that just was not the point, which is what I thought you missed. I'm glad to see you realize you may not be seeing the whole picture. It can be ever so hard when one of your most cherished values is feeling threatened. Just don't ever allow someone to hide behind one of those values. To those who may not value that thing as much it can cheapen it excessively. Have you ever been around a situation where a person of color has cried discrimination for that reason when it wasn't justified? A woman? A person of excess weight? The problem is these things DO happen, not that they don't. Thus, they are an issue and ought be made an issue of, when they ARE the issue.

So, Marigold, here I am. I'll try to be more real here and everywhere on the board. Just know that the conflict is real, the fear is real, putting down the emotional side does bring great fear. Sometimes it feels safer to say/fight for what I "know" is right, although on the inside I may want to question it. To question it, though, is to give me cause to fear the very fires of hell. Not a fun way to live and not something I can choose to stop living, because that much is well rooted :sad

[MegaVictory]

People can have values, and try to do the right thing, but it does not always turn out that way. If in your heart, you feel it is wrong, then that is a feeling you go with. But if you want something with all your heart, and it has the potential of hurting someone else, then it is wrong to pursue it. Churches try to give us our guidelines, and we do the best we can, with what we feel is right, but like I just said, it is not always that easy to even do what is right, because of the complexity of life. Through all, whatever the muddle may be, we must continually forgive ourselves and others. In working through the issues of life, it doesn't matter if we caused the issues; what matters is that we have the love in us to support, and to try to help to help fix the wrongs, so healing can make for a more normal life, whatever is meant by normal. And while in the midst of the fixing, in giving opinions on just general topics, sometimes we hit some real personal chords, and then all is left is the cold silence, and a feeling of hiding and scorn. It is Sunday, it is a day of rest, can't we all just relax in the peace, and try to be comforted?

[Marigold]

It's amazing where this thread is going - I don' t know if it's good, bad or somewhere in the middle - but it is a all amazing - and overwhelming (for me anyway).

We started out talking about McGreevey - and now we have stretched that to the breaking point by bringing so much other stuff in.

All of it is real, all of it is deepy interesting and unquestionably meaningful - but none of it can be easily addressed here - we can't even come close.

All I can say, at this point, is that I know people often cry "discrimination" or whatever - to weasle out of stuff or advance their own aims.

but - that does not negate the very real and oppressive prejudice that exists around us like a heavy smog.

It comes down hard still on african americans, on women and on gays - and yes, on fat people too.

We still carry, as a nation, the awful legacy of slavery, for instance. And being gay was not even possible to admit not so very long ago - w/o being totally ostracized by everyone.

So...bottom line is, I still feel very bad for McGreevey. And I admire him.

I was talking about him w/a friend today - she said she was angry w/him for giving a lover a crucial job (although, she readily admits, it happens *all the time* - not that it makes it right, but it does mean that he's not the only one who did and does this) - so she's angry w/the soon to be ex-gov of NJ - but admires him for not denying everything anyway and trying to fight it and drag it out.

She also sees the other guy (Golen Cipel - I think his name is) as a real "dirt-bag" - a true extortionist and opportunist. She feels McGreevey coming out when he did will stop Cipel in his tracks.

I can only hope so.

I do still feel admiration for McGreevey - because, even if he was forced to - coming out cannot be easy - esp. doing it so publically and in such humiliating circumstances. Plus he has lost what has meant so much to him and what he devoted his whole live to - a political career.

Don't forget - gays cannot even marry in most states - in Cal. they are taking away that basic human right - there is still so much gay discrimination around.

And basically? I don't like discrimination. Not one bit. For anyone.

With this - until more facts are uncovered - I've had my say on this issue - at least for now.

:hugonITIC:hugoff, I'm not trying to give you short shrift - but the issues you bring up are enormously complex - and deserve more than a token acknowledgement of them here on the current events forum.

I think it must be excruciating to feel like you must believe a certain way - though your heart may tell you differently - for fear of eternal damnation.

But I cannot really help you on this - it goes well beyond the scope of this forum and truthfully? Well beyond my abilities....

I can only say: from one human being to another - I am sorry, very much so, for you pain - and urge you not to give up on your daughter or yourself - and to be true to yourself - as much as you can.
-Marigold:sun

[Kensington]

ITIC,

I'm sorry you are going thru so much & I appreciate it must have been painful for you to write it out like that.

I'm not sure if you meant your daughter may have been abused by another female or if she is using inappropriate behaviors on other females herself. If you mean she is using what might seem like homosexual behaviors, I would have to know more about what you mean to really comment. However, a lot of kids play doctor with each other & explore & it doesn't mean they will grow up to "become" gay. I wish you & your family luck & good spirits in dealing with what is going on.

To question it, though, is to give me cause to fear the very fires of hell. Not a fun way to live and not something I can choose to stop living, because that much is well rooted

I would like to respectfully tell you that I personally don't believe God wants people to live in fear of him & to not choose to do certain things only becuz they are afraid of the fabled lakes of fire. One thing that helped me find a spirituality I am very comfortable in, as opposed to the very out of the box brimstone one presented in different settings & denominations as a child, was to learn that it's ok to question things.

Imagine if ten people you know all saw a movie & told you what they thought. Maybe five loved it, three didn't like it & two were on the fence. Each one would have different answers to what the movie meant to them, what their favorite or least favorite scene was, how they related to certain characters & how the story related to them personally. Each person's experience is valid & filtered thru their own lives.

Now imagine that you read a review of the movie & the reviewer had one firm opinion of it & made it clear that anyone who deviated from his opinion was wrong wrong wrong. The reviewer has interpreted the movie the way he sees it, which is his right, but he does not hold the only valid opinion out there.

My point is that you have every right to love the God in whom you believe along with every right to interpret him in your own way. If you question the person who interprets God for you (your preacher, your husband, etc), that is NOT the same as questioning God himself or your faith. I personally believe in a God that wants us to use our own minds, rather than follow one person in power blindly. Clergy are fallible & some of them are downright devious people in the wrong career. I don't mean your pastor in particular, I'm saying in general no career out there has one hundred percent good qualified people in it.

If you ever feel you want to find a way to still be connected to your God while checking out a different path, that is a beautiful thing, rather than you risking hellfire & damnation. A spirituality quest has lots of room for growth & changes of path. Same as I may stop reading one reviewer & instead start reading another one becuz his point of view is more valuable to me, I think people are entitled to seek out different points of view, different pastors, different denominations, different whatever they need, in order to be in the kind of relationship they want to have with God.

I didn't mean to go on & on, especially when the subject of the thread is not religion, but I did want to tell you what I was thinking & hope I was coherent. :cute

In the meantime, I read an article today saying the man who allegedly had an affair with the governor is now saying it never happened, that he was sexually harrassed. I have no idea if that's true or not, but it sure adds another wrench in the story. I still am unable to find out whether or not the man was honest with his current wife (or the first one) in that he is gay & she agreed to marry him despite that. Anyone know?

[Marigold]

Kensington,

I have no idea if McGreevey has had an "open marriage" w/either his first or second wives - but what I've read about it, thus far, leads me to think that they were not open marriages. But then again - a wife might suspect her husband is gay - and decide to go along with it.

McGreevey's first wife has said many supportive comments about him since he came out in the news conference - so apparently there is no ill will on her part - she seems to respect him - and she says he deeply loves his two children - (one from each marriage).
-Marigold:sun

[IthinkIcan]

:hugon Kensy :hugoff

A few things to wrap up:

One) My daughter was abused by another female AND is exhibiting other signs. She is not "playing doctor" or acting out in any way (not quite true, just not ? abusively?), but she is expressing herself clearly. One thing is quite clear: the abuse HAS confused her sexuality, and I don't feel "right" to unravel it for fear of shaming her. This I will not do. Maybe I will talk about this on the sexuality board. But, suffice it to say I would rather for her to have healthy feelings toward sexual acts and females performing them (though not abusively)than the alternative :wacky especially if *I* and my asexual ways are the alternative.

Two) I am on a spiritual quest much as you describe it. I have a wonderful pastor, not my husband, who is trying desperately to patch up my wounded spirituality and hold my hand as I flounder about on this adventure of a lifetime. He is wonderfully nonjudgmental and accepting and knowledgable of cults and the occult. Thus, he picked up on my background. And, as I revisit not only the abuse, but try to piece together the good parts of what might have existed of my spiritual walk throughout my life, even prior to Christianity, he just loves, listens, cries, gets angry, prays, or basically is just REAL.

So, why hide. Damned if I know. Y'all wouldn't like the answer. Right now all I can come up with is, "because I am FAT!" Somehow that just doesn't work when y'all can't SEE me and I was doing it here also . . .

Soooooooo, as McGreevey's real story continues to tumble out, so has mine, though I am done. Thanks all for listening and for the support, especially in this corner of the forums.

[MegaVictory]

Not to get things started again, and, a little off the subject we are now on, one final say, and then I am done. I knew nothing about the man, until he was brought up on this forum. I gave my opinion. I finally saw him, giving his resignation, and I can see why a lot of people like him and are sticking up for him so strongly. He and his wife, look like fine, wholesome people (as I am sure they are; like I mentioned before, life just has a way of getting ugly). I still have my same opinions, but I would have deliverd them more softly, had I seen the video, first. He looks like the kind of person anyone would want for their mayor, especially the young people of today, who are our future.

[ribbon]

Thanks for saying that :hugonmegavictory:hugoff and for taking the extra time to watch the speech.

ITIC, here is the website for PFLAG (parents and friends of lesbians and gays) http://www.pflag.org/ if you want some more information. Gay teens are far more likely to skip classes, drop out of school and/or commit suicide, in part because of harrassment, fear or rejection, verbal or physical abuse because of their sexuality.

[MegaVictory]

Thanks for the website. I always have compassion for those that "beat to a different drummer," because, in my own life, due to insecurities (?), I was always the kind of person, that if everyone was in one line, I would go into the other. And I especially have a very warm spot in my heart for children. Breaks my heart that a kid would feel so alone and isolated for what/who they are, and have nobody to talk to. My daughter is the best kid in the world, and I support her wholeheartedly with everything she does--even the "negative," I help her work through it! She was given to me, and that's my job, and I am sorry that not all kids have that. My child is officially an adolescent now, and in the two years I have been a "stay at home mom," I've watched her friends have their moms taken away, because their moms physically abused them (and she does not know this, I was often the person who secretely reported the cases), I've seen little arms with cuts, and I knew what was going on, and tried in my own small way to help. Hope you don't think I am bragging. I'm just very sensitive and often feel connected to everyone and everything (with life) in this universe, so if someone hurts, I hurt, too. But, now we are WAY OFF the subject!!!

[IthinkIcan]

:hugon Ribbon :hugoff

Thank you. I will most assuredly check this site out. ANYTHING for my daughter. And this is quite obviously nothing. I want information and am so glad you have it to offer.

In Michigan, (twenty-eight)% of school personnel surveyed determined their school environment emotionally unsafe for sexual minority youth. Source: (nineteen ninety-seven) survey of (three hundred) superintendents, school counselors and psychologists in public and private schools in five Michigan counties, conducted by the Gay, Lesbian Straight Teacher's Network. Hm, this definitely caught my attention, for obvious reasons, although stats can be quite misleading. My daughter's dance teacher for her pageant told of many openly lesbian relationships and of the easy acceptance of this among the youth of the area. She was appalled by the lack of total support by parents/adults, since the youth "get it." This was among the church crowd, but even there a lack of total support doesn't imply total alienation. So, I wonder what counties this was in since this is considered a "conservative" county. Hm, but it is the largest of the schools. I could think of other schools where this might be a problem.

Reading on.

[MegaVictory]

Ohhhhhhhhh, I see the website was meant for ITIC. But, I am allowed to be informed, too, right? For allllllllllllllllllll my kids I have around me.